Salvation

[Elhanan]

@saved34 Unfortunately, you go to great lengths to force upon the passage an interpretation that simply isn't there. You claim that this 2nd group "did not understand" the Word and therefore must have "believed something" other than the gospel so they were never true believers. Your claim is weak when Luke 8, Matt 13 & Mark 4 are examined. First we know that the correct message was sown because Lk 8:11 says that the seed represents the Word of God. Therefore no one in these groups was given the wrong message - they all were given the Word. But you somehow claim the second group simply misunderstood the message - no where does it state that - you are imposing your interpretation upon the text = bad hermeneutics. The text specifically says that the only group that didn't understand and believe was the first group: "When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path" (Matt 13:19). Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved" (Lk 8:12). In reference to the 2nd group, you claim that the 2nd group received something else or understood something different. Lk 8:13 states that they with joy, received nothing other than the Word. Lk 8:13: "Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." Even when you somehow claim that they misunderstood the word/message, your interpretation still doesn't make sense. In other words according to your interpretation, the last sentence of vs 13 should read: "They believe [but not really believe because they misunderstood] for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away [because they were never saved to begin with]." How can one fall away from the wrong message or wrong understanding?? One can only fall away from the truth. It doesn't make any sense to say they fell away from falsehood or the wrong message or false understanding. In doing so, you defy logic and strain the text to force upon it your interpretation.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Elhanan

[asper]

Perhaps this will help,

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

They were dead even though they proclaimed themselves to be alive.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

He that overcometh,

Assurance for the born again believer,

But this cannot be a warning to the born again believer because if they had been truly saved wouldn’t this verse exclude them from a second chance?

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Here is assurance,

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Some are able to hear.

John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

Edited March 27, 2013 by asper

[asper]

Read what the Greek says. Jesus is speaking to believers. Believers are the only ones who have their name written in the Book of Life.

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture.

He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that.

I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work,

One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not.

First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.

How so?

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I honestly don't know what those scriptures have to do with anything I said? I was saying that those who are truly the called of God will overcome, and those who are not called to be saved will die lost. You will wind up wherever you were pre-destined to wind up, and this will be reflected in your lifestyle. I have posted much about this all throughout this thread and others explaining exactly what I mean. That is why the first thing I said in my response to you was I do believe in what you call "double pre-destination," though I had not heard this term till recently.

Hi butero,

It was in response to this statement,

“The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.”

If we overcome then why then is the warning? It is pretty much a done deal isn’t it since God said it in His word?

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Fair enough, but my response to you would be that this is speaking of those who were predestined to be saved. They will be overcomers. While I believe that God knows our eternal fate, and knew it before we were formed in the womb, he still has people give out warnings. Those who are predestined to heed the warnings will, and those who are predestined to stop up their ears will do so.

BTW, why the huge font? You can post however you wish, but I was just wondering? It is a big hard to follow because you have to scroll down so far just to read a single paragraph.

of course it is about those predestined to be saved. those predestined to be saved will be saved and those not predestined will be lost but not because they didn't have oportunity even though they were unable to take it because of thier nature.

the large font is because i was asked by some to increase my font size because they were older and had trouble reading my posts.

Edited March 27, 2013 by asper

[OneLight]

If one truly turns away... they were never saved to begin with.

1 John 2:19 (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I have seen this verse posted for the same manner it is being posted by you, trying to show that believers cannot ever turn from Christ. This does not support your theory. This verse tells us that they were never saved, which you agree with. How does that prove that those who believe in Christ cannot turn away from Him?

Seriously Onelight, the way you are debating is a bit disingenuous. The man shows scripture that clearly says"those who professed and left were not like us or of us. Scripture clearly says everyone born of God overcome the world. Which clearly means if a person is not born again he will not and cannot overcome. He may claim to have faith, but it means nothing if it does not have works, it is not real faith but dead. You still insist on this imaginary scenario where one can be genuinely born again (because that is what faith in Christ brings about) and still one day be lost. You brush off clear scripture and then claim we have to show where a christian will never turn. It's like you are trying your best to hold to this straw man theology and refuse to hear direct scripture. God seals us with the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. For a genuine believer to turn back he would have to push through the reconciliation of Christ (the change of heart and mind that comes about from receiving Christ's atoning work),

There is nothing disingenuous about my comment. What was being presented was an argument to show that Christians cannot turn from Christ by using this verse, which was taken out of context. I never said it meant anything different than what it says. Here is the verse in the full context. Nowhere does it say anything about a believer not being able to turn from Christ.

1 John 2:18-23

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

What we find in scripture is that God makes a way for us to overcome, not that everyone born of God will overcome. That is determined as we continue in Him. What I have said all along is that we have a choice in every decision we make to follow God or not. Each choice determines if we remain on the path or wander off into false teaching, which, when brought to its fullness, can lead to a separation from God. Following Christ is our works, for we do not do our own works, but His works. If we are not with Him, but off on some false doctrine, how will He work through us? Look at the letters in Revelation. Even Jesus states the same. Are you now going to tell Jesus that He is teaching some imaginary scenario because of His words that do not agree with your theology? Deal with the letters and convince me, otherwise, you are continuing to sidestep what I bring.

As far as scripture being brushed off, you have not addressed Revelation 3:5 one, or any other letters I brought into the discussion, instead, you provided a lot of scripture to stand against the verse without even discussing Revelation 3:5. I challenge you to discuss what Christ said and show where He is not saying what He said. This is from an earlier post where you have not addressed one of these statements Christ made in context.

Jesus is talking to the church of Ephesus in Revelation 2:4-5 "Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent." What happens if they choose not to repent to turn back to Him? He will remove their church for its place. This is a warning to the whole body of believers.

Jesus is speaking to the church of Pegamos in Revelation 2:14-16 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth." Jesus does not, nor will not, have to fight against one of His own, only His enemies. If they do not repent, they turn from His children to His enemy.

Jesus tells those in the church of Thyatira, in Revelation 2:29-23 " Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works." Not only do those who follow the false doctrine called adulterers, and we know those who commit adultery will not enter into the kingdom of God, but they will also be cast into a great tribulation. As if that was not enough, they will be killed as one of her children, for one is the child of the one they follow ... those who are saved are children of God, those who follow Jezebel are the children of Jezebel.

I have already presented what Jesus said to the church of Sardis (see below) , so I will move onto the church of the Laodiceans. This is a very popular church today because it is seen by some as a message for today's church. Jesus tells us in Revelation 3:15-16 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth." Jesus would never consider one of His children so repulsive that He needs to spit them out of His mouth, yet that is what He is feeling toward this body of believers in their present state. It is clear that if they do not return to Him and their first love for Him, they are no longer His children.

Jesus does not say these things and not mean them. Those who refuse to see His warning for what they are will be the ones who do not repent, and it is clear what happens to them. You see, God will never loose one person whose heart is toward Him. Yet, He will not force anyone to choose to follow Him. That has to be a choice of their own to accept Him and to follow Him. Scripture never tells us that once we are saved we can never turn from Him. Unfortunately, some argue that they were never saved in the first place, while scripture says just the opposite. Those who are addressed in the churches are those who accepted salvation, or they would not be in the church body. We may be fooled, but Jesus is never fooled.

Revelation 3:1-5

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

This is the passage that I have spoken of the most, where those who do not overcome will be blotted out of the Book of Life. He is speaking to His children because those in the Book of Life are saved, not everyone who ever lived (which is mans doctrine and not scriptural).

Jesus is speaking to the faithful who had followed Him, not unbelievers.

God would have to Abort the new nature he has placed in the believer, he would have to unseal the believer, he would have to remove him from his right hand seated with Christ right now. The believer would have to somehow remove the eternal life given to him by Christ and step back into death. Do you brothers understand what takes place at salvation? I'm not trying to be funny, or trying to be mean, but what does it mean to be born again to you guys. At this point I know you will not answer this question Onelight, but others, please answer. Do you guys not understand the supernatural power and process in God saving a sinner?

God does not abort anything. That would mean that it was His choice. Those who turn are doing so by their own free will, their choice. You fail to see the difference. That is where OSAS fails, they ignore that man can turn. It is like some security blanket or teddy bear, that if they hold onto it tight enough, they are safe. That is the difference between OSAS and Eternal Security. Eternal Security requires one to continue in Christ, which would also mean that one can decide NOT to continue in Him.

Show me where Christ is not saying what He said in the letters to the church by using the letters themselves. To fully understand scripture, you need to not ignore the parts you cannot agree with. Instead of making scripture form to your belief, allow your belief to be formed by scripture.

[Elhanan]

I'm just curious as to what your responses are to a hypothetical scenario. To those who say that all the warning passages in Scripture only apply to those who were never genuine believers to begin with because all true believers without exception will always persevere, overcome, are sealed, can't fall away, etc.,etc. Given your premise, what would you do if you found yourself in the Tribulation and had to make a choice whether or not to take the mark of the beast. I do not doubt that you are genuine believers and hope that we would all refuse to do so. But for the sake of argument, what if the pressure were so great that you or I for that matter choose to accept the mark. Then does that mean you were not truly saved to begin with?

Edited March 27, 2013 by Elhanan

[Guest Butero]

of course it is about those predestined to be saved. those predestined to be saved will be saved and those not predestined will be lost but not because they didn't have oportunity even though they were unable to take it because of thier nature.

If you believe this, then we are pretty much on the same page. Lets take the example you gave from Revelation 3:1

I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

You are absolutely right. This person was not saved, but the key here is that this person thought they were saved. That is the problem I have with most of the OSAS believers. They teach a false assurance of salvation message to where they can continue in sin, and remain saved because of their supposed faith in Christ. This shows that you can honestly believe you are saved and still be lost. I agree with the premise that the truly predestined and called of God will remain saved, but at the same time, just because you believe you are saved, that doesn't mean you are? If you are living in sin, chances are you are deceiving yourself, and the warning is to the people in that condition. If they are not among those predestined to be saved, of course they won't be saved because they have a sin nature, and God hasn't quickened them. God is absolutely sovereign in his choices, but that doesn't mean we aren't going through life making our own decisions. It is just that God knew what they would be before we did them, and created us to be the person we are.

[asper]

I'm just curious as to what your responses are to a hypothetical scenario. To those who say that all the warning passages in Scripture only apply to those who were never genuine believers to begin with because all true believers without exception will always persevere, overcome, are sealed, can't fall away, etc.,etc. Given your premise, what would you do if you found yourself in the Tribulation and had to make a choice whether or not to take the mark of the beast. I do not doubt that you are genuine believers and hope that we would all refuse to do so. But for the sake of argument, what if the pressure were so great that you or I for that matter choose to accept the mark. Then does that mean you were not truly saved to begin with?

Hi elhanan,

I don’t think all the warnings in the Scriptures are only for unbelievers but I believe that (and I think I said this before) you have to take everything in context.

Here are some examples,

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

But who is he talking to?

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So he is talking to everyone in the church but is only applicable to those who were thinking of going back into Judaism.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

So who is He talking to?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To those he never knew, not to those who lost their salvation.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Who is He talking to?

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

To everyone in the church but it is not applicable to those that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

The letters to the seven churches in Revelation each has something about overcoming.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

But check this out,

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

So considering how good this church was, the individual (not the church) still had to overcome.

But my answer to your question is that God keeps us. We cannot take credit for it.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

But you certainly can believe what you want and this is only a discussion although some may be getting a little carried away.

By the way I don’t believe that a saved person can willfully go on sinning because of a few factors.

We are changed,

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 ¶ For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

We have to answer for sinning now,

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

We love so that makes it hard to sin,

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

There are more but nothing is coming to mind right now.

I’m sure I can go on but I think it is enough to explain my position more clearly then just saying that we cannot receive the mark.

Good talking with you…

[asper]

of course it is about those predestined to be saved. those predestined to be saved will be saved and those not predestined will be lost but not because they didn't have oportunity even though they were unable to take it because of thier nature.

If you believe this, then we are pretty much on the same page. Lets take the example you gave from Revelation 3:1

I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

You are absolutely right. This person was not saved, but the key here is that this person thought they were saved. That is the problem I have with most of the OSAS believers. They teach a false assurance of salvation message to where they can continue in sin, and remain saved because of their supposed faith in Christ. This shows that you can honestly believe you are saved and still be lost. I agree with the premise that the truly predestined and called of God will remain saved, but at the same time, just because you believe you are saved, that doesn't mean you are? If you are living in sin, chances are you are deceiving yourself, and the warning is to the people in that condition. If they are not among those predestined to be saved, of course they won't be saved because they have a sin nature, and God hasn't quickened them. God is absolutely sovereign in his choices, but that doesn't mean we aren't going through life making our own decisions. It is just that God knew what they would be before we did them, and created us to be the person we are.

i also think we are really close in our beliefs.

here is some Scriptures that are food for thought.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

[Elhanan]

I'm just curious as to what your responses are to a hypothetical scenario. To those who say that all the warning passages in Scripture only apply to those who were never genuine believers to begin with because all true believers without exception will always persevere, overcome, are sealed, can't fall away, etc.,etc. Given your premise, what would you do if you found yourself in the Tribulation and had to make a choice whether or not to take the mark of the beast. I do not doubt that you are genuine believers and hope that we would all refuse to do so. But for the sake of argument, what if the pressure were so great that you or I for that matter choose to accept the mark. Then does that mean you were not truly saved to begin with?

Hi elhanan,

I don’t think all the warnings in the Scriptures are only for unbelievers but I believe that (and I think I said this before) you have to take everything in context.

Here are some examples,

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

But who is he talking to?

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So he is talking to everyone in the church but is only applicable to those who were thinking of going back into Judaism.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

So who is He talking to?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To those he never knew, not to those who lost their salvation.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Who is He talking to?

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

To everyone in the church but it is not applicable to those that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

The letters to the seven churches in Revelation each has something about overcoming.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

But check this out,

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

So considering how good this church was, the individual (not the church) still had to overcome.

But my answer to your question is that God keeps us. We cannot take credit for it.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

But you certainly can believe what you want and this is only a discussion although some may be getting a little carried away.

By the way I don’t believe that a saved person can willfully go on sinning because of a few factors.

We are changed,

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 ¶ For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

We have to answer for sinning now,

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

We love so that makes it hard to sin,

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

There are more but nothing is coming to mind right now.

I’m sure I can go on but I think it is enough to explain my position more clearly then just saying that we cannot receive the mark.

Good talking with you…

Thanks for your response but it would have actually been easier to understand your position with a yes or no answer to my hypothetical scenario. If I understand you correctly you believe a saved person cannot lose their salvation but at the same time you say that a saved person cannot keep on sinning willfully. So, if he/she keeps sinning willfully then I assume you would say he/she was not saved in the first place?

[asper]

Hi elhanan,

I believe a truly saved person cannot continuously sin for a variety of reasons.

We are changed,

We are held by the power of God

We will get an timely reaction from God,

and we love God and people.

Some other things involve trials and testing which weakens the flesh’s power over us.

We learn by experience that it is better to go Gods way,

And so on…

But I wonder if anyone can be completely without sin in this sinful flesh.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

So I would say it is more of the direction as opposed to sinless perfection in this life.

But of course I am not perfect, but did you get anything that you can use?