The Ten Virgins - What is the parable about? Matt 25

[Guest]

Everyone in the Millennial Kingdom will be saved at the beginning. But they will have children and they will have children. They will have to then decide whether to accept Christ as their Savior just like everyone else. The difference is that the Holy Spirit will not seal their salvation as He does the Church. That is where all the people who will join Satan to war against Christ will come from at the end of the millennium.

Parker, do you have any scripture that backs up that children will be born in the Millennium or just using reasoning to conclude it will be such? I have not come to a true understanding of what it will be. One thing that comes to mind is that 'they will all know me from the least to the greatest' and 'man shall not have to teach his neighbor saying know the Lord'. Will there be children born who need to come to know him and accept him? I am not sure. Just like to know what you or others have on this. I know it says that a child shall lead them which indicates that children will be there but that could be children who were alive at the coming of the Lord, not sure. Thanks in advance.

Perhaps this may help: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/crockett/populate.html

[gdemoss]

Everyone in the Millennial Kingdom will be saved at the beginning. But they will have children and they will have children. They will have to then decide whether to accept Christ as their Savior just like everyone else. The difference is that the Holy Spirit will not seal their salvation as He does the Church. That is where all the people who will join Satan to war against Christ will come from at the end of the millennium.

Parker, do you have any scripture that backs up that children will be born in the Millennium or just using reasoning to conclude it will be such? I have not come to a true understanding of what it will be. One thing that comes to mind is that 'they will all know me from the least to the greatest' and 'man shall not have to teach his neighbor saying know the Lord'. Will there be children born who need to come to know him and accept him? I am not sure. Just like to know what you or others have on this. I know it says that a child shall lead them which indicates that children will be there but that could be children who were alive at the coming of the Lord, not sure. Thanks in advance.

Perhaps this may help: http://www.rapturere...t/populate.html

Yes, it did help. There is direct evidence from scripture that the population increases between the second coming and the end of the Millennial reign therefore we must conclude children will be born during this time. Thank you. Clears things up a bit, even if I do not hold to the same pretrib position as the site cited.

[Guest]

That's cool!

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hi Omegaman,

I want to start by saying that you shouldn't feel stupid about any of this. It is a profound mystery, just as the apostle Paul said. I appreciate you taking the time to tell us your feeling on these things, but I must tell you that I disagree with your over-all view.

I agree that His coming will be immediately after the tribulation. However, there are two different types of "coming" that need to be addressed here. In Matthew 24:30-31 Christ is coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. From there He sends His angels with a great sound of a trumpet to gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mark 13:27 gives us a much clearer view of this as it shows the elect traveling upward, not coming down.

Nice to meet you again rollingthunder, and thank you for your thoughtfull and educational reply to my post. Yes, no problem with the above, we meet him in the air:

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Notice that in the passage above, it says that God will bring with Jesus, those who have died. That sounds downward to me, but I could be wrong. Bring is toward us, take is away from us. The point is, we are going up to be with Him. Passage also mentions angels and trump, so I think we are on the same page there. However, the passage states He comes down, and we go up, and does not say whether we come down with Him, or we go up with Him after we meet in the air.

Hi Omegaman,

Sorry for the long delay, and thank you for your patience. I work 12, sometimes 16 hr. shifts. So between the long hours and commuting to and fro, there is not always a lot of spare time for secondary things. I notice the passage you quoted above is from 1 Thessalonians 4. This is one of the two passages most frequently used by scholars when they discuss the rapture, not the second coming. The other popular rapture passage is 1 Cor. 15:51-52. You are referring to the spirits of the dead in Christ, which Christ will bring with Him to the meeting in the clouds, and in the air. So, yes, I agree that the spirits of the dead will descend (downward) with Christ, and meet us in the clouds/air.

I remember, if I'm not mistaken, that you once said you were a post-tribber, which usually describes someone's belief that the rapture will occur after the tribulation. This is important, because a believer's individual view or position on the timing of the rapture will often play a very critical role here. It usually determines how we interpret certain scriptures, as believers often tend to fit the scriptures into what they believe the scriptures are saying. Although this may be good for grasping our own personal understanding, unfortunately it also leads to several different theories.

The reason I bring this up is because pre-tribbers believe the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24 is only the second coming. Most post-tribbers believe it is both, the rapture and the second coming occuring simultaneously. I, too, believe the rapture (gathering of the elect) will happen after the tribulation, but I disagree with the post-trib theory. The reason for this is because other scripture tells us that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. In fact, Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes. 1:10), just like it was in the days of Noah (Matt. 24:37). We will go through the tribulation (Matt. 24:29), and those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt.24:22), but God's wrath must come before the physical second coming to earth, when Christ returns with His saints as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to reign on the earth for 1000 years.

I basically disagree with you about the two different types of coming. I find the one where Jesus comes again, after the tribulation, where He gathers the elects, from the earth, the living and the dead saints, and brings us to earth with Him, but I cannot find the other one.

You lost me here. It appears that you are contradicting what you just said at the end of your previous paragraph above. Maybe because you are using a rapture passage, instead of a second coming passage?? But basically, we have to get from point (A) earth, to point (B) meeting in the clouds/air, but I see no returning to the earth again in any of the passages we are discussing here. I see the rapture, but no second coming back to the earth, not at that time anyway.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Mark 13:27

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Again, it does not state in that verse, what direction we go from that meeting, up or down.

My point exactly! It says absolutely nothing about where we go from the meeting in the clouds/air. However, there are several clues when you keep reading into the parables.

I'm very tired now. I'll continue tomorrow, Lord willing, after I get some much needed rest.

[enoob57]

Omegaman and OneLight... where do you two place the Bema Seat?

[missmuffet]

Omegaman and OneLight... where do you two place the Bema Seat?

I do not know where they place the Bema Seat but I place it right after the Raptured get to their distination of Heaven.

[Guest]

I'm very tired now. I'll continue tomorrow, Lord willing, after I get some much needed rest.

No hurry rollinTHUNDER, I am relatively certain the Lord is not returning in the next few days, and if He does, what you and I beleive about thises things won't change it, take your time friend.

[Guest]

Omegaman and OneLight... where do you two place the Bema Seat?

Thanks for the question enoob. To be honest, I have not tried to ferret that out, I plead ignorance. I know some people think the bema and the great white throne are disctinc, others think they are the same. I have not even tried to figure that out. The are many passages that state that 'His reward is with Him when He comes'. But I can't even tell you if that relates. When I have no idea, I will say so, and that is what I am saying now.

If I get one, I'll let you know.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I hope I am misunderstanding you, but it looks to me like you are saying that in that verse (Mark 13:37) that that is not Jesus second coming to the earth. I must be misunderstanding you because immediately before the verse you quoted we see exactly what this is describing:

24"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

(the upper case letters above are from the NASB, not my doing) The fact that verse 27 begins with "and" connects it to the verse before it, so it is saying "After the tribulation, things happen and Jesus comes in power and glory and gathers His elect. 100% consistant with what I am saying and what I believe.

Yes, this is definitely going to happen. But the thing is, since you recognize this gathering in the clouds as the second coming to earth, this makes it appear as if there will be no rapture. I know that some believers don't believe in the rapture, do you? You said earlier, that you see the second coming, but not the other. And I guess you wouldn't see the rapture in this, because you are using the rapture passage (1 Thes.4:16-17) for the second coming. I see it the opposite way. I see the gathering of the elect as the rapture (1 The.4:16-17, 1 Cor.15:51-52), but I don't see where they are returning to the earth. You said, yourself, you don't see whether they go up or down from the point of the gathering in the clouds, yet you say this is the second coming to the earth. So, let me ask you a question. Which verse or passage of scripture in Matthew chapters 24 & 25 shows that the elect have returned with Christ, and places them on the earth?