Molinism

[BlessedByTheBest]

falling away from the faith is believing the lie. the original one. the doubt of God and his Word, in all its myriad forms and possibilities that lead one astray from His Truth.

the belief in any of the seducing ploys of the enemy will lead to death, and the cause will be that of itching ears and a lack of the first great commandment, not because of any necessity.

I agree with you except I do see a necessity in the form of knowing the Truth so as to have power to see through the lies.

i was referring to your statements here:

They are like the virgins with not enough oil for their lamps. Of course they will willingy choose to seek oil for their lamps when their lamps begin faltering. That's like saying a a man willingly seeks food because he is hungry.

those who fall away do not do so because of necessity. they do so by conscious choice, turning their backs on what they know to be good and true, and thus not in ignorance.

I don't disagree that the foolish virgins made a conscious choice out of foolishness. Of course being a fool precedes the act of foolishness. Likewise us fools need to see what makes us fools if we are to not be fools. Hence knowledge is a necessity. Moreover, lest one wishes to be a foolish virgin, it should be ascertained what exactly Jesus means when he says it is wise to bring extra oil.

thank you.

1) do you believe an act of foolishness will deprive one from the kingdom of God, or will it be willful ignorance?

2) wouldn't you say their foolishness was less a show of ignorance, and more like a lack of maturity? doesn't the parable convey a contrast in sincerity, and not nescience?

3) what would you say made the prudent virgins, prudent?

4) aside from the oil, what do you believe the lamp signifies?

[childeye]

1

So you are implying that lies are posed by Satan and Satan is responsible for all evil actions in the world?

1

I would say yes to the first question.

I would like to ask who was responsible for Satan turning from God?

You should have asked, What is responsible for Satan turning from God? The answer, pride.

God gave free will to all His creation, starting with the angels. So, if Satan didn't have free will to choose for himself, who was to blame? God?

God gave wills to all of His creation, not free wills. Some wills are more gifted than others. Hence a bird is smarter than a worm.

3

How does a being (Satan) with no Truth in him freely choose?

Who told Satan that it was OK to want to be like God and rebel against God? Who is responsible for the sins of Satan? I argue that Satan, like us, have the ability to freely choose what they believe, making up their own minds. Otherwise, the only other place to put the blame is on God for He created everyone, and that would be blasphemy at the highest.

Nobody has to tell Satan it was okay to want to be like God. The thought of Satan's is the manifestation of an ignorance entertaining pride. The creation can't be the Creator.

[OneLight]

What I have against what you present is that you minimize sin by trying to show that the sinner, well, 'it really was not their fault, they were just duped or weak ... go easy on them' attitude. That is what is wrong with the world today, minimizing sin to make it sound like no big deal.

I think life and death is a big deal. The only thing bigger is believing slanderous things about the Maker and giver of Life. So respectfully, I would say that what is wrong with the world, is men have no mercy nor understanding for those who have done the same things we all have done.

Jesus said God desires mercy and understanding not God desires no go easy on them attitudes and no excuses. Now I ask you, in the following exchange, who are the ones who are finding fault with others and who is the one that is defending the sinners? ³⁰ But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

³¹ Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. ³² I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

I Think we've been here before. Let's face it, you believe there is freewill and that is at the foundation of your reasoning. Which brings you to the conclusion that men can simply choose to be good or evil because they know right and wrong. You therefore justify blaming people and see no rational reason to "downplay" anyone's sin. That is acting responsibly to you. I believe that freewill is a lie and sin is a disease of the flesh and a blindness of the eyes that only God can cure. Hence I have mercy and understanding and to me that is the responsible thing to do.

Slander is lying and is a sin. Having no love for your neighbor is a sin. The problem, as I see it, is that sinning is not seen as bad anymore. The Post Modern and Metamodernism attitude that has grown stronger in this world is the attitude I speak of. They are like reeds bending in the wind, this way and that way, depending on what they feel is right with no absolute moral right and wrong, no compass to guide them.

I have a long history of working with people who are trying to change their lives. It is only when they see themselves in reality, instead of how they want to think of themselves, is when change begins. They need to face the real world. If I have been too soft or over empathetic, they may get the idea that I don't see their situation as sever as it really is. I cannot allow this to happen. I can, though, once they have broken through the hard line of reality, help them feel at ease and do everything I can to stand beside them as they go through their changes. There is a time to be soft and a time to be hard. Softness comes when they need it, not always when they want it. Helping someone see the real issue is loving them in a hard manner.

Well said, Onelight. I certainly can respect that view and agree with it completely. I can definitely relate. There are times when we must be hard, and at other times gentle. If I see someone downplaying their sin I will be hard. If I see someone beating themselves up, I will be consoling. Love covers a wide spectrum of responses to sin. But this freewill thing I just don't see it. To me, all sin happens out of ignorance because anyone would have to be ignorant of something to go against God who is ever looking out for the best interests of us all... Apart from Adam being innocent in the garden and the Truth setting people free, I see nothing that I would consider as a will that is free.

As far as the world goes, I think sin is not considered bad anymore becasue everybody appears to do it and no one seems to be able to stop it. If there is a freewill it's not working. And people throw up their hands and do not seek a doctor precisely because they believe they have freewills and simply choose to be abominations. If only they would look at Romans 1 and read why they are abominations, they may consider that only Christ can heal them. Only the Truth can set them free. That is how I see and address the real issue and I try to be as gentle as I possibly can. Sometimes however, being gentle is not possible.

This is where I have to strongly disagree. I was a heavy drug addict after I excepted Jesus in my early twenties. I knew I was wrong, but didn't care. I said to myself that I would deal with this later and if I died before I did, then I suffer eternal separation from God. I knew all well this was true, but I enjoyed the high I got more then I worried about eternity. Was I ignorant? No, not at all. It was a choice I made and I took, and still take, full responsibility for my action. Ignorance points to the mind, the understanding, where salvation is of the heart.

You seem to think free will is designed to be only implied in the correct manner, to bring someone toward God. By your examples of free will, I honestly believe we have different understandings. To me, free will is the ability to choose. It really is that simple. Being set free from sin is not having free will. Free will comes in the choosing salvation or not choosing salvation, not being set free.

Good post. Were you ignorant? I would say of course you were. For addiction is a trap that you fell into. That's why they call it addiction.

I have to stop you here. I was not ignorant. You are going to have to take me at my word here. I didn't care. Without going into details as why this happened, I do know what I am talking about, since it was me. I turned before I became addicted. It was a choice I made

In order for you to discount what I say and bolster your stance, you are taking privileges that are not yours to take. I was there, you were not.

[Fez]

To me, all sin happens out of ignorance because anyone would have to be ignorant of something to go against God who is ever looking out for the best interests of us all... Apart from Adam being innocent in the garden and the Truth setting people free, I see nothing that I would consider as a will that is free.

Speak for yourself.

Every sin I have ever committed and will commit, is a free will choice I made, and will make. Such is the nature of the beast.....

[OneLight]

Now to answer your questions ...

How would you know you were wrong without something good?

I had studied scripture and knew what I was doing. I also had His Spirit to convict me. I understand that blows your theory out of the water, yet it is the truth. Not every bad decision is made out of ignorance. There are other reasons behind why people choose to do what they do beside being lied to, duped or ignorant.

But this makes no sense to me. You said you accepted Christ before you were a drug addict, and yet you say you didn't care about eternity afterwards because you enjoyed the high you got more than eternity. That is ignorance. salvation is not dependent upon whether you don't get high. This would make a man dread God. You were a drug addict and you valued the drug more than eternity?

You fail to follow the process. I had to turn from God before I became addicted.

• Tell me, what true knowledge made you think a small moment of being high was more important than an eternity of bliss? What knowledge made you understand that the torment of addiction was better than the peace of having want for nothing?
  
  
  What makes you think it had anything to do with knowledge?
  • Did you not recognize the will you were under was the will of the flesh which seeks it's own pleasure and avoids pain?
    
    
    I was not ignorant of my actions or choices. Please, don't treat me as if I was. I know you cannot accept what I say because it goes against your theory. I gave up. It was a choice. I did not want to wait any longer for things to change. That was my choice. Knowledge told me to wait on the Lord, but I refused to wait. It was a choice.
    • Did you come to realize that the voice that was telling you to care about your condition and do something about it was God and not your flesh?
      
      
      Please. I was not ignorant. Your question are all designed around your idea that ignorance is the cause and it was not.
      • Was it Love of others that eventually turned you around, or perhaps someone elses Love for you?
        
        
        God waited until the time was right and moved in my life, as He does with everyone.
        • Did others pray for you?
          
        How would I know that?

        [*]Do you thank God for setting you free and not abandoning you, or do you believe it was by your own freewill?

        It is not one or the other, as you try to make it. God did not give up on me, and I chose to listen to Him again. The glory is His, but the acceptance to change is mine.

        [*]God is the Light of man. If you chose to do anything right or good, how do you say it was yourself, your flesh?

        Now you are making false claims to continue your argument. Show me where I once said I saved myself.

        [*]What made you choose to care?

        You are repeating yourself.

        [*]Is not Love required to care?

        Of course it is. Do you really have to ask this???

        Of course you took responsibility for your actions, they were your actions. Ignorance of these powers that are working upon the wills of men however is a matter of the mind and heart and soul. Why is it scripture says to bring all thoughts into captivity? Do you not recall your saying that even thinking to sin as a viable option is sin? I say it this way because, it is impossible to not think of sin. How do you think I will not think of sin without thinking of sin? No, we combat the viabilty of the sinful path with Truth in our minds. With Truth we dispel the lies that would use our flesh to tempt us. And In our hearts, we feel the love and empathy for others and how our decisions will affect them. That is morality and that is God in us. Not some random back and forth ability to choose.

        You place excessive value on ignorance as an diagnosis. Ignorance is a status of the mind. Sin is the status of the heart. Sin starts in the heart and brings about thoughts. It is not the other way around.

        Are you afraid of the fact that you are responsible for your own choices? Are you afraid to admit that some, if not most, choices are made knowing what they are doing? It appears to me that you are continually looking for a way to point to something else beside yourself if you fail to do what it right.

[OneLight]

1

So you are implying that lies are posed by Satan and Satan is responsible for all evil actions in the world?

1

I would say yes to the first question.

I would like to ask who was responsible for Satan turning from God?

You should have asked, What is responsible for Satan turning from God? The answer, pride.

No, I asked what I wanted to ask. Who was responsible for Satan turning from God? Will you answer that?

God gave free will to all His creation, starting with the angels. So, if Satan didn't have free will to choose for himself, who was to blame? God?

God gave wills to all of His creation, not free wills. Some wills are more gifted than others. Hence a bird is smarter than a worm.

You are confusing intelligence with will. Free will is the ability to choose. Intelligence is the amount of choice one has to choose from.

3

How does a being (Satan) with no Truth in him freely choose?

Who told Satan that it was OK to want to be like God and rebel against God? Who is responsible for the sins of Satan? I argue that Satan, like us, have the ability to freely choose what they believe, making up their own minds. Otherwise, the only other place to put the blame is on God for He created everyone, and that would be blasphemy at the highest.

Nobody has to tell Satan it was okay to want to be like God. The thought of Satan's is the manifestation of an ignorance entertaining pride. The creation can't be the Creator.

There you go again. Ignorance is not the answer. Lucifer was one of the most cherished of His creation. Lucifer knew what was right and was was wrong. He was not ignorant. He wanted the power of God and to be God. That was not out of ignorance, but out of allowing the sin of pride he to fester in his heart. WHen someone lies enough to believe a lie, it was not our of ignorance they do so, but out of desire.

[BlessedByTheBest]

i don't believe anyone is or will be condemned to eternal damnation if not by willing choice.

no one goes to Hell by accident.

[childeye]

Now to answer your questions ...

How would you know you were wrong without something good?

I had studied scripture and knew what I was doing. I also had His Spirit to convict me. I understand that blows your theory out of the water, yet it is the truth. Not every bad decision is made out of ignorance. There are other reasons behind why people choose to do what they do beside being lied to, duped or ignorant.

Actually One light, you verified what I said. See above, you say you had studied scripture and the Holy Spirit convicted you. Therefore you knew wrong with somethong good. Cetainly the Holy Spirit and the scriptures don't exist by your so called freewill. These things of God moved you as per faith by grace.

• Was it Love of others that eventually turned you around, or perhaps someone elses Love for you?
  
  
  God waited until the time was right and moved in my life, as He does with everyone.
  
  

Okay, Finally you give credit to God moving in you rather than you moving yourself. That's the reason for all the questions. That's all I am saying when I speak against freewill. I am testifying there is a God and He is the goodness in mankind and without Him we are carnal abominations. That is the knowledge of God. Hence if you believe your will chooses freely, you are ignorant of this.

Do you thank God for setting you free and not abandoning you, or do you believe it was by your own freewill?

It is not one or the other, as you try to make it. God did not give up on me, and I chose to listen to Him again. The glory is His, but the acceptance to change is mine.

Here we go again. Do you know what conviction is? The act of convincing a person of error or of compelling the admission of a truth. Now above you claim the Holy Spirit had to convince you and now you claim you chose to listen and the acceptance to change is yours? Onelight, Am I to understand that the Holy Spirit convinced you of your error, but you chose to accept that you were in error? For me, when I was convinced of some error by the Spirit of Truth, I was forced to admit I was in error, as in ignorant. The only thing that could stop the power of His Truth is being too proud to humble ourselves and admit we need God. It sounds like you're saying I was starving to death, God in his compassion saw me and gave me food, but the reasom I live is really because I freely chose to accept it and eat it. Consider, even Jesus when tempted by Satan said man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

You place excessive value on ignorance as an diagnosis. Ignorance is a status of the mind. Sin is the status of the heart. Sin starts in the heart and brings about thoughts. It is not the other way around.

You are missing the point here. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and the Truth sets people free from sin. That is not my idea. That is what Jesus taught.

Are you afraid of the fact that you are responsible for your own choices?

I will admit I am responsible for my actions as to the best of my knowledge. What you want me to do is accept blame and give blame, and conversely give credit and take credit. That is a humanist point of view. I could not forgive with a pure heart if I believed what you believe. For even my forgivness would be unto my credit.

I will admit I am ignorant if without knowledge of what is true. I admit that the will of the flesh is working in me unto death. I don't take credit for being corrected by God. I don't think I choose to Love because I feel compassion in my heart. I therefore do not deliberate in my mind when to weep or when to mourn. He moves me toward charity with empathy for the poor, not kudos to my ability to choose on account of I could have despised such empathy. I am a child of God which means I am sired by the seed of God. Yes I am afraid to take responsibility for my choices since that would be a only a pride based on ignorance.

Are you afraid to admit that some, if not most, choices are made knowing what they are doing?

Of course not. I'm saying if they think they can live apart from the God of Life they don't know what they are doing.

It appears to me that you are continually looking for a way to point to something else beside yourself if you fail to do what it right.

You mean what is the carnal mind? I don't need to look for it, I've experienced it first hand. I'm only saying what Paul said.

Romans 7:14-20

King James Version (KJV)

¹⁴ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

¹⁵ For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

¹⁶ If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

¹⁷ Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

¹⁸ For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

¹⁹ For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

²⁰ Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

[childeye]

No, I asked what I wanted to ask. Who was responsible for Satan turning from God? Will you answer that?

God was ultimately responsible so He gets the credit or the glory. xero already answered this question accurately and provided scriptural support.

Romans 8:20

King James Version (KJV)

²⁰ For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Revelation 4:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

⁹ And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

¹⁰ The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

¹¹ Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Childeye said: God gave wills to all of His creation, not free wills. Some wills are more gifted than others. Hence a bird is smarter than a worm.

Onelight said: You are confusing intelligence with will. Free will is the ability to choose. Intelligence is the amount of choice one has to choose from.

Will is the ability to choose. Free will is the ability to choose freely without any outside or external powers influencing or compelling or restraining.

will ¹ (wl)

n.

1.

a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.

b. The act of exercising the will.

free will

n.

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.

2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

[childeye]

To me, all sin happens out of ignorance because anyone would have to be ignorant of something to go against God who is ever looking out for the best interests of us all... Apart from Adam being innocent in the garden and the Truth setting people free, I see nothing that I would consider as a will that is free.

Speak for yourself.

Every sin I have ever committed and will commit, is a free will choice I made, and will make. Such is the nature of the beast.....

Is it the nature of the beast or your free will? Is your freewill the will of the flesh?