Molinism

[ByFaithAlone]

I am confused on childeye's responses. In some cases it seems like he doesn't believe in any type of free will and some times it appears that he does. To set the record right, I would like to ask directly.

Childeye, do you believe that

(a) free will does not exist (hard determinism),

(b) free will and determinism are compatible (note a compatibilist can still believe in predestination, God's sovereignty, etc)

© free will exists and is incompatible with determinism (libertarian free will)?

These are the three philosophical positions on free will although many positions can exist within each of them (such as Molinism and 5-point Calvinism within compatibilism). In which camp do you stand?

If you claim hard determinism, I would ask you, as Cobalt has asked before, to explain how you believe an all-loving God could condemn one for actions already determined by God. How do you reconcile this injustice?

Thanks for clearing this up.

[OneLight]

I am forced to wonder who you believe Jesus is and why He came? Care to answer this to set things straight?

He is the saviour.

If you do not believe people are responsible for their sins, what is He saving them from?

Respectfully, I would rmind you that accidents can happen and people are responsible even though they did not intend to cause hurt. This is a fact, unless you wish to say that the measure you judge with has no such allowance. Therefore, I did not say men are not responsible for what they have done, I am saying they did not mean to do it. So I would say Jesus saves man by showing the worship causing divine Love of God, while at the same time defeating a merciless self-serving prosecutor with the power of death who was against us.

Enough of platitudes. There are over 330 references to sin in the NT alone. Accidents are not sins, but accidents.

[enoob57]

Of course He tempted us; with a subtle lie placed upon the innocent and gullible. Yes it was a conscious decision by Satan to tempt mankind and it was a sin to do so.

This is incorrect according to Scripture

1 Tim 2:13-15

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

NKJV

Love, Steven

Context Steven. Respectfully, the scripture you are using is about who should have authority over whom, between the man and the woman. The woman was deceived because it was her whom Satan beguiled. The man however, was convinced by the woman who had been deceived. This scripture therefore does not mean to imply that Adam knew what he was doing and purposefully slandered God while the woman did not purposefully do it. For the scripture would then be saying, that the one who knowingly meant to slander Who is Holy should have authority over the one that was deceived into doing it. That's like saying the criminal mind should have authority over the innocent mind.

Paul makes a statement Adam was not deceived... Adam ate the fruit he was told not to by God! Therefore I can say Adam sinned for well knowing His sin in doing so!

A hermeneutical principle- when the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense... now I turn you over to the wall you may argue with it awhile Love, Steven

[OneLight]

I think the truth behind your posts are coming to light.

If nobody was responsible for what they do, then Jesus would not of needed to die for our sins for we would not be held accountable for things we are not responsible for. Your theory has far too many holes in them to even begin to hold water. You cannot twist scripture to justify sin. There would also be no Great White Throne Judgment if nobody is responsible for their sins.

On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him.

Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin.

It appears you like to twist words to bolster yourself above others. I have never once in my life ever states such a lie.

Meanwhile, I notice you did not even try to approach the subject about being held responsible for your actions. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions?

Peace, OneLight. I do not seek to demean you and myself along with you. Look at the record. You state: "You cannot twist scripture to justify sin". I take that to mean you are saying I am twisting scripture so as to justify sin. You are wrong in your application. Why could you not have considered that I am using scripture so as to advocate for forgiveness of sin? So shall we start over in good faith and godly Love for one another?

It is plain to see that you claim people who sin do so out of ignorance, and that is not true. Even as a child we learn that we cannot steal or lie, but we choose to do so in certain circumstances mostly for selfish reasons. People do know when they are sinning. Why do you think the Holy Spirit came? One reason is to convict the world of sin. If there were no sin, then this would not be true. To me, when you claim that people do not sin outside of ignorance, you are indeed twisting what Christ said, for you quoted His words.

I sincerely don't know what you mean by not addressing your point about responsibility. I answered this: "Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible".

No, that was a sidestep you want me to accept as an answer. Allow me to be direct in my questions and you can be direct in yoru answers.

1. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true?
   
2. If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture?
   
3. If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions?
   

Onelight I answered this already. Yes, there is judgment. See above about men running a race. They will be judged on their life actions, but also we know that men will be judged by what measure they use to judge others. Even so, Jesus said if you wish to escape judgment, don't judge.

Jesus said "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Your statement usually comes from those who refuse to see their error when it is pointed out to them.

As for your understanding of what they will be judged for, here is scripture that does not agree with you at all.

Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire

[Guest]

.... The woman was deceived because it was her whom Satan beguiled. The man however, was convinced by the woman who had been deceived. This scripture therefore does not mean to imply that Adam knew what he was doing and purposefully slandered God while the woman did not purposefully do it. For the scripture would then be saying, that the one who knowingly meant to slander Who is Holy should have authority over the one that was deceived into doing it. That's like saying the criminal mind should have authority over the innocent mind....

Dear One In Context It Seems Quite Clear To Me

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Genesis 3:4

Adam Stood By And Let His Girl Eat Of The Tree First

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Genesis 3:6

To Test God's Words You See

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16-17

Wow~! What A Man

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:17-19

My Grandfather And Me

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. 1 Samuel 2:8-9

[childeye]

.... Respectfully, I would remind you that accidents can happen and people are responsible even though they did not intend to cause hurt. This is a fact, unless you wish to say that the measure you judge with has no such allowance. Therefore, I did not say men are not responsible for what they have done, I am saying they did not mean to do it......

Beloved~! Respectfully Sin Is No Accident

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:13-17

And Still It Is True

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

Jesus Saves

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

Whosoever Will

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17

For the record. Satan tempted mankind , God didn't tempt us. I would therefore respectfully ask that you not imply that I have said otherwise.

Yes sin is a lust of the flesh. Therefore, I would respectfully ask that you not imply I have said otherwise.

Thank you for recognizing that a man who sins against God wrongs his own soul, for this is proof that men who sin do so because they are deceived.

[Guest]

.... Therefore, I would respectfully ask that you not imply I have said otherwise.....

????

.... people are responsible even though they did not intend to cause hurt....

????

[childeye]

Adam did mean to sin so pin pointed by Scripture!

Who is pin? And show me the scripture.

[OneLight]

.... Respectfully, I would remind you that accidents can happen and people are responsible even though they did not intend to cause hurt. This is a fact, unless you wish to say that the measure you judge with has no such allowance. Therefore, I did not say men are not responsible for what they have done, I am saying they did not mean to do it......

Beloved~! Respectfully Sin Is No Accident

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:13-17

And Still It Is True

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

Jesus Saves

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

Whosoever Will

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17

For the record. Satan tempted mankind , God didn't tempt us. I would therefore respectfully ask that you not imply that I have said otherwise.

Yes sin is a lust of the flesh. Therefore, I would respectfully ask that you not imply I have said otherwise.

Thank you for recognizing that a man who sins against God wrongs his own soul, for this is proof that men who sin do so because they are deceived.

Satan may of tempted man, but man choose to accept the deception over Gods word. It is mans choice that became sin and that is what God judged man for. God also judged Satan for his sins also.

Genesis 3:1-19

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”

And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,

You are cursed more than all cattle,

And more than every beast of the field;

On your belly you shall go,

And you shall eat dust

All the days of your life.

And I will put enmity

Between you and the woman,

And between your seed and her Seed;

He shall bruise your head,

And you shall bruise His heel.”

To the woman He said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;

In pain you shall bring forth children;

Your desire shall be for your husband,

And he shall rule over you.”

Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

“Cursed is the ground for your sake;

In toil you shall eat of it

All the days of your life.

Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,

And you shall eat the herb of the field.

In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread

Till you return to the ground,

For out of it you were taken;

For dust you are,

And to dust you shall return.”

No matter how you word it, man is responsible for his decisions, good or bad. It is against scripture to blame Satan for mans sins. Satan is accountable for himself, just as we are responsible for ourselves.

1 John 10

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

[xero]

We have been given salvation. We are the sheep and Christ is our salvation so pay attention to the wording when its says we are given to Christ by the Father:

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one."

We are not our own:

1 Corinthians 6:19 "What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have of God, and you are not your own?20For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

We didnt choose to live God gave us life. We didnt choose Salvation God gave us Salvation.

We are bought with the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world where is there a choice when we were bought before we even went to market?

Heres Romans 9:19 again because the same arguement against God being immoral is repeated:

Romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

Why does He find fault for who has resisted His will? Thats the same sentiment you guys have when saying if God chose who will live and die before they existed its unfair which Paul said is like the thing formed asking him who formed it "Why have you made me thus?".