Civil unions vs. Marriage

[OneLight]

Equal protection under the law.

Everyone is protected under the law. Protection does not equate marriage rights, or any blessing for sinning. Why do you want to reward sin?

[Qnts2]

The only question would be, if a Christian business owner does not wish to cater to a couple, as a couple, who are not biblically married, but the government recognizes the civil union, will that still be discrimination according to the law? The answer will likely be yes. And the reasoning to disallow different treatment of differing couples, will be things which were wrong, such as racial discrimination, Jim Crow laws, etc.

The easiest way out is to outlaw any marriage which is not biblical, but that heads down a very sticky road also. There are marriages which are outlawed in the OT, which many today would not dream of banning. (Jews can't marry non-Jews. Mamzers are children of biblically illegal unions and these children are restricted who they can marry. They can marry other mamzers. etc.)

But don't we live under the NT law and not the OT law? So while there are laws in the OT that are important for us to note the laws that have traveled from the OT into the NT (homosexuality, bestiality, sexual immorality) are the ones that Christians must abide by...which is why we can eat pork/shellfish. So while there are marriage bans in the OT what about in the NT- are the bans the same? Am I correct in this thought process?

The laws against sex with partners of the same gender are very clear in the OT. Not so clear in the NT. While we are under the New Covenant, and not the Mosaic covenant, all scripture is still good and good for teaching.

2 Tim 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

An addition comment. The Mosaic covenant was given to Israel. Within the Mosaic law given to Israel, are certain commands which applied to non-Jews who were living in the land of Israel or traveling thru. Obviously, a non-Jew living or visiting in the land is subject to laws against murder, etc. A non-Jew who was not in the land of Israel is never mentioned in the Mosaic law. So, non-Jews outside of the land of Israel could eat pork and shellfish.

Are the marriage bans the same in the NT? No. There are differences. In the OT, Jews were not to marry non-Jews. In the NT, believers are to marry those of like Spirit. There are a whole bunch more differences, including the unique laws concerning the mamzer. And there are some which are the same.

[Tinky]

The laws against sex with partners of the same gender are very clear in the OT. Not so clear in the NT.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold back the truth in unrighteousness... Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves...

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which is meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them" (Rom. 1:18, 24, 26-32).

That looks pretty clear to me.

[JTC]

Omegaman,

I'm not 100% certain homosexuality was once illegal. But I am 100% certain it was once considered a mental illness. The reason I'm sure of that was because 40 years ago I was training to be a Doctor of the mind. And 1 of our professors told us that the book psychiatrists use to make a diagnose with, once contained homosexuality as a mental illness. I think it was taken out in either the late 1940's or the 1950's. When I was in school it was seen as a sexual deviation. We were told we should only call it an illness if a person came to us and said he/she had these urges and they were a disturbance to their life.

[ayin jade]

The laws against sex with partners of the same gender are very clear in the OT. Not so clear in the NT.

I think the NT is quite clear on homosexuality. There are several verses in the NT that affirm that marriage is of opposite genders, that homosexuality is a sin.

[OneLight]

Omegaman,

I'm not 100% certain homosexuality was once illegal. But I am 100% certain it was once considered a mental illness. The reason I'm sure of that was because 40 years ago I was training to be a Doctor of the mind. And 1 of our professors told us that the book psychiatrists use to make a diagnose with, once contained homosexuality as a mental illness. I think it was taken out in either the late 1940's or the 1950's. When I was in school it was seen as a sexual deviation. We were told we should only call it an illness if a person came to us and said he/she had these urges and they were a disturbance to their life.

There was a law called the Sodomy Law. This law was in affect up to 2003 when the supreme court over ruled the law in a case called Lawrence v. Texas. Homosexual activity was considered a mental illness far after the 50's, but as time went on, from the 60's until 2003, this was often overlooked due to those who committed homosexual acts were coming out of the closet and were found to be high favored people in society.

[JTC]

The sodomy law and the homosexual mental illness category were 2 separate things. I was studying to be a clinical psychologist in the mid 1970's. There's a book used more by psychiatrists more than psychologists called the DSM. In the 70's I think it was up to version 3. One student asked why there needs to be revisions, and the professor sited that at one time homosexuality was in there as a mental illness, and had to be removed. But that's not the same as the sodomy law.

One of my all time favorite shows as a kid was the original Star Trek (although as an adult I prefer Voyager). And of course William Shatner was a childhood hero. Although I stopped liking him when he made it clear he didn't like Star Trek. He was a nobody before that show. But when I found out Shatner and several others of the cast were gay, I lost interest in it. Same thing with a lot of actors. Once I find out they're gay, I lose interest in them.

And I agree that the NT makes it very clear that homosexuality is a sin, especially in the book of Romans. If Paul would have said it any clearer, he would have been boarding on using vulgar language.

[OneLight]

The sodomy law and the homosexual mental illness category were 2 separate things. I was studying to be a clinical psychologist in the mid 1970's. There's a book used more by psychiatrists more than psychologists called the DSM. In the 70's I think it was up to version 3. One student asked why there needs to be revisions, and the professor sited that at one time homosexuality was in there as a mental illness, and had to be removed. But that's not the same as the sodomy law.

One of my all time favorite shows as a kid was the original Star Trek (although as an adult I prefer Voyager). And of course William Shatner was a childhood hero. Although I stopped liking him when he made it clear he didn't like Star Trek. He was a nobody before that show. But when I found out Shatner and several others of the cast were gay, I lost interest in it. Same thing with a lot of actors. Once I find out they're gay, I lose interest in them.

And I agree that the NT makes it very clear that homosexuality is a sin, especially in the book of Romans. If Paul would have said it any clearer, he would have been boarding on using vulgar language.

I cannot speak about what they teach in law school, only what I know from experiences within my family. I am sure there is a huge gap transferring education to reality.

I never said that homosexuality and the Sodomy Law was the same thing, just that they are linked.

[Guest]

Choose the lesser of 2 evils? How about rejecting evil totally? Society may not like it, but that is what a follower of Jesus Christ MUST do, reject all evil not accept the lesser of it. That is a foothold for Satan to mess with your head.

[Guest]

Omegaman,

I'm not 100% certain homosexuality was once illegal. But I am 100% certain it was once considered a mental illness. The reason I'm sure of that was because 40 years ago I was training to be a Doctor of the mind. And 1 of our professors told us that the book psychiatrists use to make a diagnose with, once contained homosexuality as a mental illness. I think it was taken out in either the late 1940's or the 1950's. When I was in school it was seen as a sexual deviation. We were told we should only call it an illness if a person came to us and said he/she had these urges and they were a disturbance to their life.

JTC, Bear in mind that this is an international forum and homosexuality is still illegal in many countries. Sodomy laws have existed I think in most of the states, but that was not always, if ever, limited to homosexuals. I see to remember that there was a Supreme Court ruling that decriminalized homosexual activity, from that I conclude that it must have been illegal somewhere, since the Supreme Court as far as I know, does not act preemptively.

The notion of homosexuality being declassified as a mental disorder, was not in the 40s or 50s, i can remember it happening, and I rememver little from the 50s and nothing from the 40s. If memory serves, it was in the early 70s.