"Split- What do you all Believe- Hell is Like?"

[Hall7]

Well Gods word is action so keep that in mind ok and as for your beliefs sure youre entitled to them but youre wrong for thinking theres other ways to heaven it came out of Jesus' mouth He said I am the Way the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father but through Me. now you do need to read the bible and ask for yourself you seem like a smart kid please use your smartness in seel\king the TRUTH for it will set you free! God bless you and yes we all will pray for you

I'm curious what you believe happens to the souls of the millions of people who died without having the chance to learn about Jesus' message?

I believe only God knows the answer to that question. A better question would be how does one' life directed by the Holy spirit compares to one' life not directed by it. There are two spiritual dimensions on this Earth, one is lead by the world and the other by Jesus/God and the Holy spirit of God. How does the spirit change when the metamorphosis occurs and what happens to the mind? Here's an example:

Freedom of the spirit and mind...

The veil lifted from humanity's true self; my old true self reflecting like a mirror...

I am no longer them and they are no longer me and yet we are all one, one human race.

The balance can be found in the self, and the self is found through the spirit.

And when it is found, it reveals a vision of our inner past, present and future like a piece of art painted on a canvas...

Using pieces of the past worldly self to be able to relate to the world...

To understand the 3rd dimensional (worldly) conditioned minds and yet remain in the spirit...

Seeing through minds, spirits and hearts...

The goal becomes to help the human race and in return accumulate treasures in heaven.

It isn't a task or a duty, but rather a way of living, a way of truly quenching the happiness within to feel complete.

Because when you no longer are of the world, worldly desires cease to satisfy the mind, and the happiness of others becomes what satisfies your being...

You become free, you become eternal... I don't believe in God because I fear hell, I believe and do His will because it satisfies my spirit, heals my body, and directs my path in making the right decisions in life. It's a win-win situation really .

[Guest shiloh357]

You personally choose to focus on a single attribute of God -his holiness- at the expense of his love - that is arbitrary and capricious. My position accommodates both. Therefore it would seem that your position falls short of being biblical and not Christian. In fact your position would be the distinctly minority position taught in the early church as in the first few centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.

I am not focusing on God's holiness at the expense of His love. I am saying that holiness is God's chief attribute and His love cannnot override His holiness. Your position is a heretical position that offers an alternative means of salvation than the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ's finished work on the cross.

The fact that some early church fathers were universalist doesn't really mean anything. Truth is not arrived at by a majority vote. History has shown that the majority can be and is often, wrong.

The truth is that my position is the ONLY position that accomodates both the love and holiness of God without offering a false gospel and an alternative means of salvation. According to Galatians 1, you are under a curse for preaching a false gospel other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You fail to answer the problem of how hell is represented in the Bible. Where does the Bible describe hell as a temporary place of correction? Show chapter and verse. I will not be holding my breath, as you will not be able to produce any solid Scripture to suppoort your heretical, false gospel. Furthermore, the error of universalism is the assumption that people go to hell because of their sins, ie. the bad things they have done. Hell is a consequence, not a punishment for evil doing. Hell is the eternal consequence for those who reject Jesus regardless of how good or bad they are. No one goes to hell for what they do. They go to hell for being separated from God and rejecting the gospel.

Universalism is an old heresy that was also held by many in the early church. But theology has become more sophisticated and better methods of biblical hermeneutics have come into existence and it is easy to demonstrate the error of the early church fathers in many areas, including the heresy of Universalism. Universalism is rejected by all genuine followers of Jesus.

[Guest]

Amen~!

[Elhanan]

You personally choose to focus on a single attribute of God -his holiness- at the expense of his love - that is arbitrary and capricious. My position accommodates both. Therefore it would seem that your position falls short of being biblical and not Christian. In fact your position would be the distinctly minority position taught in the early church as in the first few centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.

I am not focusing on God's holiness at the expense of His love. I am saying that holiness is God's chief attribute and His love cannnot override His holiness. Your position is a heretical position that offers an alternative means of salvation than the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ's finished work on the cross.

The fact that some early church fathers were universalist doesn't really mean anything. Truth is not arrived at by a majority vote. History has shown that the majority can be and is often, wrong.

The truth is that my position is the ONLY position that accomodates both the love and holiness of God without offering a false gospel and an alternative means of salvation. According to Galatians 1, you are under a curse for preaching a false gospel other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You fail to answer the problem of how hell is represented in the Bible. Where does the Bible describe hell as a temporary place of correction? Show chapter and verse. I will not be holding my breath, as you will not be able to produce any solid Scripture to suppoort your heretical, false gospel. Furthermore, the error of universalism is the assumption that people go to hell because of their sins, ie. the bad things they have done. Hell is a consequence, not a punishment for evil doing. Hell is the eternal consequence for those who reject Jesus regardless of how good or bad they are. No one goes to hell for what they do. They go to hell for being separated from God and rejecting the gospel.

Universalism is an old heresy that was also held by many in the early church. But theology has become more sophisticated and better methods of biblical hermeneutics have come into existence and it is easy to demonstrate the error of the early church fathers in many areas, including the heresy of Universalism. Universalism is rejected by all genuine followers of Jesus.

You capriciously assert God's holiness over his love. Would you care to offer any scriptures that specifically back up your claim that God's chief attribute is his holiness overriding all of his other attributes? Apparently you do not accurately understand universalism (although one should always define one's terms) as biblical universalism properly understood, does indeed affirm that salvation is solely by grace through faith in Christ's shed blood on the cross - there is no other way. One should therefore be careful in labeling something as heretical especially when one is not familiar with the subject.

While it is true that just because some of the church fathers embraced universalism does not make it true, it does lend support to the position particularly in the case of universalism because this view did not begin to meet opposition until the time of Augustine – some 400 years later. And yes I agree that the majority position can be wrong. So how ironic is it then that the position of eternal torment is now the majority view so I will take the liberty to use your own words to point out to you that indeed: “History has shown that the majority can be and is often, wrong.”

Your view that yours is the only position to accommodate God's love and holiness appears rooted in your own subjectivity and is not objective by any stretch of the imagination. I wonder how your position can be characterized as loving when according to your view, billions of souls end up tormented forever, never to be reconciled to God. But perhaps your definition of “loving” is akin to Jonathan Edward's description of those lost souls: “The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”

The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.”

["The Eternity of Hell Torments" (Sermon), April 1739 & Discourses on Various Important Subjects, 1738]

Furthermore, you have overlooked or chosen not to respond to my earlier post where I demonstrated the framework that shows that universalism accommodates both God's sovereignty and his love – something that the two major schools of eternal torment - Calvinism and Arminianism are not able to accommodate. Therefore I caution you that you might be the one who is actually preaching a perverted gospel.

Do you mean hell as in Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Lake of fire? – again define your terms. Go ahead and take a few breaths – do you not remember that Jesus preached to and freed the captives in hades? You should also refrain from utilizing your straw man argument about what you assume about universalism. Universalism affirms that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; all that believe in him (Jesus) shall not perish but have eternal life; and to reject the gift of salvation results in separation from God so please get your facts straight.

You wrote: “But theology has become more sophisticated and better methods of biblical hermeneutics have come into existence and it is easy to demonstrate the error of the early church fathers in many areas, including the heresy of Universalism.”

Really, how so? You write in very general terms without citing any specifics to back up your assertions. How exactly has theology become “more sophisticated” and can you specifically cite what those “better methods”of hermeneutics are that have disproven Universalism? Perhaps I have missed something since my seminary days of long ago, so feel free to enlighten me.

[Guest]

.... While it is true that just because some of the church fathers embraced universalism does not make it true, it does lend support to the position particularly in the case of universalism because this view did not begin to meet opposition until the time of Augustine – some 400 years later. And yes I agree that the majority position can be wrong. So how ironic is it then that the position of eternal torment is now the majority view so I will take the liberty to use your own words to point out to you that indeed: “History has shown that the majority can be and is often, wrong.”

Your view that yours is the only position to accommodate God's love and holiness appears rooted in your own subjectivity and is not objective by any stretch of the imagination. I wonder how your position can be characterized as loving when according to your view, billions of souls end up tormented forever, never to be reconciled to God. But perhaps your definition of “loving” is akin to Jonathan Edward's description of those lost souls: “The view of the misery of the damned will double the ard our of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”

The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.”

["The Eternity of Hell Torments" (Sermon), April 1739 & Discourses on Various Important Subjects, 1738]

Furthermore, you have overlooked or chosen not to respond to my earlier post where I demonstrated the framework that shows that universalism accommodates both God's sovereignty and his love – something that the two major schools of eternal torment - Calvinism and Arminianism are not able to accommodate. Therefore I caution you that you might be the one who is actually preaching a perverted gospel.

Do you mean hell as in Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Lake of fire? – again define your terms. Go ahead and take a few breaths – do you not remember that Jesus preached to and freed the captives in hades? You should also refrain from utilizing your straw man argument about what you assume about universalism. Universalism affirms that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; all that believe in him (Jesus) shall not perish but have eternal life; and to reject the gift of salvation results in separation from God so please get your facts straight.... so feel free to enlighten me....

OK

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.John 3:35-36

The

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

Big Swim

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15

And The Love Of God

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:4-7

So, What's The Beef

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

With Jesus

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.Deuteronomy 32;39-43

Anyhow?

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:47-48

Hum...

[Elhanan]

sorry fresnojoe - I don't respond to proof-texting as I can't read people's minds if they don't elaborate upon the text quoted

[OneLight]

sorry fresnojoe - I don't respond to proof-texting as I can't read people's minds if they don't elaborate upon the text quoted

When you read posts from Joe, the black words is what he is saying and the blue words are his scriptural backing. What Joe is actually saying is "OK, The Big Swim And The Love Of God So, What's The Beef With Jesus Anyhow? Hum..."

[Elhanan]

yes onelight, I realize that but it's still too cryptic to me

[Guest]

.... I don't respond to proof-texting as I can't read people's minds if they don't elaborate upon the text quoted....

~

Proof

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: Isaiah 29:12

Texting

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Isaiah 29:12-13

Amen~!

~

Believe

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:47-48

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[His Ambassador]

Well Gods word is action so keep that in mind ok and as for your beliefs sure youre entitled to them but youre wrong for thinking theres other ways to heaven it came out of Jesus' mouth He said I am the Way the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father but through Me. now you do need to read the bible and ask for yourself you seem like a smart kid please use your smartness in seel\king the TRUTH for it will set you free! God bless you and yes we all will pray for you

I'm curious what you believe happens to the souls of the millions of people who died without having the chance to learn about Jesus' message?

When Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me" He did not mean "You must hear the story of me". He meant "Those who are saved are saved because of what I have done". Romans 1:20 makes it clear that God has made Himself known through His creation. Those who come to know Him through His creation and choose to repent are saved by what Jesus has done even though they never hear His name. We must stop assuming that one must hear the name of Jesus in order to be saved. But we can never deny that it is the shed blood of our Lord that saves.