Guest Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 there are no passages of Scripture that teach a man has a spirit that lives on after death or that goes to Heaven and we have quite a bit of Scripture that speaks of how man was created, what he was created with, and where he goes when he dies, maybe it's the doctrines that you guys hold that should be reconsidered. ~ Reconsidered Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. John 8:51 How About You? And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Here is a quote from the Church Historian Eusebius. He sheds some light on how this doctrine infiltrated Christianity. “Plato … plainly declares that a rational soul is the breath of God, and divides all things into two classes, intellectual and sensible: consisting of bodily structure; the one comprehended by the intellect alone, the other estimated by the judgment and the senses. The former class, therefore, which partakes of the divine spirit, and is uncompounded and immaterial, is eternal, and inherits everlasting life; but the latter, being entirely resolved into the elements of which it is composed, has no share in everlasting life. He [Plato] farther teaches the admirable doctrine, that those who have passed a life of virtue, that is, the spirits of good and holy men, are enshrined, after their separation from the body, in the fairest mansions of heaven. A doctrine not merely to be admired, but profitable too. For who can believe in such a statement, and aspire to such a happy lot, without desiring to practice righteousness and temperance, and to turn aside from vice? In the late 200's a few Christian leaders in Alexandria, a hotbed of Gnosticism fell prey to some of Plato's doctrines and tried to incorporate them into the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Amen , floating axe. Someone told me not long ago, don't cast your pearls before the swine. There are some who just want to argue. They don't want to believe, or they do not have the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, or probably both. I know you must have mentioned this one, but when Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts 7:59: "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said '"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' NASV. Since he saw Jesus standing in honor of him, I do believe he was expecting his spirit to be with Jesus in heaven. While a dying confession is accepted in courts, I doubt if butch will accept Stephen's as truth. He seems to be accustomed to some sort of formal debate that has rules, but he doesn't tell us what the rules are. Moreover he is more interested in playing the game than knowing the truth. The problem is that his real arguement is with God. And the sad thing is that he can't win. It will require him to humble himself as a little child and surrender to his intellect and arguements to his Creator. Of course, that is just my opinion. Wow, that's pretty amazing since no one has presented anything that teaches one has a spirit that lives on after death or that one goes to Heaven when they die. What I've said is plainly stated in the Scriptures yet the counter argument is from inference. You spoke about seeking the truth. I've been doing so for some years now. The includes going back to the source and rejecting the teachings of men. The idea of ascending into the heavens is from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. he apostle John called the Gnostics antichrist. If one is searching for truth then they'll accept whatever the Scriptures say, not try to counter them with inferences. Instead of putting forth inferences why not look at the Scriptures that I have presented in humility and be willing to change one's doctrine when it doesn't align with the Scriptures? Think about this. According to most Christians the ultimate goal in life is to spend eternity in Heaven with the Lord. If this was the teaching of Scripture don't you think it would have at least been mentioned "one" time , even if just in passing? There is not a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die or that man has a spirit (other than God's) that lives on after death. Do you really believe that God would give all of the Bible and leave the most important part to inference? Hi butch, I think the key is that we will ever be with the Lord. I think that we will come back to earth so spending eternity in heaven would not be correct. 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. God bless, Tony Hi Tony, I was just pointing out what is probably the majority belief. It's interesting that you posted the verse from 1 Thess 4. If you're coming back with Jesus what exactly is it that is going to meet the Lord in the air. How are you meeting Him if you are already with Him. To meet someone can mean two things. One can meet someone, someone they didn't know or they can meet someone, at a location. If you come back with Jesus you're not meeting Him you're with Him. It's obvious that if one is already dead and in the presence of Jesus Christ, that he will be coming back with Him and receiving his own new immortal body before the Christians who are alive and looking for Christ will receive their new bodies. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (NLT) 15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. Paul said the dead in Christ shall rise and meet the Lord in the air. How are the dead in Christ going to rise and meet the Lord in the air if they are already with Him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Do you guys understand what it means for Scripture to teach something? Do you understand what an inference is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 how this doctrine infiltrated Christianity. ~ How Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, John 11:25 (NASB) Indeed Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them. John 3:36 (NIV) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 30, 2013 The key is that Paul doesn't what to be without the body. It's clear from his words that he expects to clothe his mortal body with his immortal body. He makes no mention at all about wanting to leave his body and be a spirit that lives on after death. The passage say nothing about being a spirit and living on after death. Seriously, you do realize this is an inference, right? It was the desire of the Greek and the Gnostics to escape the body and ascend into the Heavens. Paul wrote that he desired to be out of his body and clothed with immortality----to be in His spirit body with Jesus. He was fully aware that should he die, he would be included in the resurrection at Jesus' glorious return and will receive a glorified body---we Christians all have that very same hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Do you guys understand what it means for Scripture to teach something? Do you understand what an inference is? ~ Yes For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:3-4 Yes We Do Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 ~ What! And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Revelation 22:3-6 Beloved Did You Think God Now Has Marbles In His Mouth I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17 Or Butter On His Fingers My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Here is a quote from the Church Historian Eusebius. He sheds some light on how this doctrine infiltrated Christianity. “Plato … plainly declares that a rational soul is the breath of God, and divides all things into two classes, intellectual and sensible: consisting of bodily structure; the one comprehended by the intellect alone, the other estimated by the judgment and the senses. The former class, therefore, which partakes of the divine spirit, and is uncompounded and immaterial, is eternal, and inherits everlasting life; but the latter, being entirely resolved into the elements of which it is composed, has no share in everlasting life. He [Plato] farther teaches the admirable doctrine, that those who have passed a life of virtue, that is, the spirits of good and holy men, are enshrined, after their separation from the body, in the fairest mansions of heaven. A doctrine not merely to be admired, but profitable too. For who can believe in such a statement, and aspire to such a happy lot, without desiring to practice righteousness and temperance, and to turn aside from vice? In the late 200's a few Christian leaders in Alexandria, a hotbed of Gnosticism fell prey to some of Plato's doctrines and tried to incorporate them into the faith. Plato taught no "admirable doctrine". Please, don't start giving us quotes from heretics and unbelievers---ancient or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Paul said the dead in Christ shall rise and meet the Lord in the air. How are the dead in Christ going to rise and meet the Lord in the air if they are already with Him? I guess you missed the preceding verse I included as an edit. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 (NLT) 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died. The dead in Christ will rise out of their physical graves and be recreated into new, glorified bodies, meeting up with their eternal spirits that have returned with Christ to be made fit for service in His earthly Kingdom. It's not hard to grasp unless you truly want to shake off the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 30, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Do you guys understand what it means for Scripture to teach something? Do you understand what an inference is? Do you, Butch? It is a difficult thing for one to allow Holy Spirit to teach His truth when one is hardened to it and is bound and determined to deny it even when it is boldly presented. Our teacher is Holy Spirit, remember! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts