Are you still a Christian if...

[Hall7]

I think that would make them a backsliding Christian. They will be forgiven if they repent and can start from scratch like new. But if they continue to do the same thing over and over again knowingly and willingly of the sin they are committing, then they're getting into some deep trouble there. Christian means "Christ-like", to act like Christ did, and we no longer act like Him, we no longer are a Christian.

That is a works based salvation. We are forgiven for all our sins, past, present and future when we are saved. The question becomes, therefore, were they ever really saved to begin with? 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." One can "no longer" be a follower of Christ. Once you are one, you are always one. Or you never were one at all.

Amen brother, thank you for pointing that out as well.

[Elhanan]

I think that would make them a backsliding Christian. They will be forgiven if they repent and can start from scratch like new. But if they continue to do the same thing over and over again knowingly and willingly of the sin they are committing, then they're getting into some deep trouble there. Christian means "Christ-like", to act like Christ did, and we no longer act like Him, we no longer are a Christian.

That is a works based salvation. We are forgiven for all our sins, past, present and future when we are saved. The question becomes, therefore, were they ever really saved to begin with? 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." One can "no longer" be a follower of Christ. Once you are one, you are always one. Or you never were one at all.

The notion that a believer who departs from the faith or sins to the point of falling away was never a believer in the first place is a logical fallacy because it presents only an “either – or” choice and ignores the alternate possibility that someone could indeed be a believer and subsequently forfeit his/her salvation. 1 Tim 4:1 states: “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” The Greek word here for “fall away” is apostesontai from which the English word apostasize is derived. So in this case it would not be wise to contradict the expressed teaching of the Holy Spirit that a saved person can apostasize from an original position, in this case, "the faith."

[JTC]

This question is going round and round in circles. I'm hesitant to even say anything because I'm not dedicated and devoted to any one or set of doctrines, whereby some are trying to say this can't be because it conflicts a doctrine. But the questions Revolutionist raised here are super important. These are things happening in our world and she's trying to make sense of them. Elhanan is right and he gave scripture to prove it. I know he's right because I've been around long enough to see it happen.

We've also been through the whole salvation by works debate, and we're not saying you're going to get saved by works. However, we also know from scripture and experience that a saved person will have some (at least) good works. And just to remind everyone, that it is the Lord Jesus Himself who has the final say on who is being rewarded with eternal life. We also need to remember that some people will display these works faster than others.

But a while back Revolutionist is concerned because she's in a position of having to defend certain people as Christians or not. I would just walk away but maybe she can't.

If someone is murdering other people and continues to do so time and again, I wouldn't consider that person a Christian at all. Not even a back slidden one.

The sexual sins are not as easy to evaluate. The sexual drive is so strong, and our society feeds it so much, that each case has to be looked at independently. I'd need to know exactly what the person is doing, and for how long they are doing it. Is the person single or married, and many other such questions. But then, apart from the sexual sin, what kind of behavior do I see. If the person is showing good fruit apart from the sexual sin, I might say the person is a Christian. And again I'd have to know how long it's going on before I decide whether or not to defend the person as a Christian. Because believe me or not, sex becomes less important with age. So when I say a long time with a sexual sin, I mean 20 or more years.

One more thing with sexual sins I fear is happening. Christians are starting to lose the knowledge of what a sexual sin is. So if Jesus continues to stay away, and our society keeps going as it is, in 200 years or more will anyone even remember that homosexuality is sin? Especially if the gay community gets it's way and rewords the Bible. I've already met 1 or 2 very young gay persons who attend church regularly, and their church leaders have convinced them that they can be gay and still go to Heaven. Even though the Bibles I have say that won't happen.

So I'll end this by saying, once again, Jesus will determine who gets into Heaven.

[revolutionist90]

This question is going round and round in circles. I'm hesitant to even say anything because I'm not dedicated and devoted to any one or set of doctrines, whereby some are trying to say this can't be because it conflicts a doctrine. But the questions Revolutionist raised here are super important. These are things happening in our world and she's trying to make sense of them. Elhanan is right and he gave scripture to prove it. I know he's right because I've been around long enough to see it happen.

We've also been through the whole salvation by works debate, and we're not saying you're going to get saved by works. However, we also know from scripture and experience that a saved person will have some (at least) good works. And just to remind everyone, that it is the Lord Jesus Himself who has the final say on who is being rewarded with eternal life. We also need to remember that some people will display these works faster than others.

But a while back Revolutionist is concerned because she's in a position of having to defend certain people as Christians or not. I would just walk away but maybe she can't.

If someone is murdering other people and continues to do so time and again, I wouldn't consider that person a Christian at all. Not even a back slidden one.

The sexual sins are not as easy to evaluate. The sexual drive is so strong, and our society feeds it so much, that each case has to be looked at independently. I'd need to know exactly what the person is doing, and for how long they are doing it. Is the person single or married, and many other such questions. But then, apart from the sexual sin, what kind of behavior do I see. If the person is showing good fruit apart from the sexual sin, I might say the person is a Christian. And again I'd have to know how long it's going on before I decide whether or not to defend the person as a Christian. Because believe me or not, sex becomes less important with age. So when I say a long time with a sexual sin, I mean 20 or more years.

One more thing with sexual sins I fear is happening. Christians are starting to lose the knowledge of what a sexual sin is. So if Jesus continues to stay away, and our society keeps going as it is, in 200 years or more will anyone even remember that homosexuality is sin? Especially if the gay community gets it's way and rewords the Bible. I've already met 1 or 2 very young gay persons who attend church regularly, and their church leaders have convinced them that they can be gay and still go to Heaven. Even though the Bibles I have say that won't happen.

So I'll end this by saying, once again, Jesus will determine who gets into Heaven.

Your comments always show compassion and understanding and I greatly appreciate it. I am trying to make sense of things. I am usually able to walk away from the arguments but sometimes they happen in class, the question is by my Professor and it is difficult to get up and walk out at times. I do believe sexual sins are harder to judge especially in this day and age. And at the end of the day you are right that only Jesus can determine who will enter the gates. I can see this is simply a confusing topic in general...

[Guest]

I think that would make them a backsliding Christian. They will be forgiven if they repent and can start from scratch like new. But if they continue to do the same thing over and over again knowingly and willingly of the sin they are committing, then they're getting into some deep trouble there. Christian means "Christ-like", to act like Christ did, and we no longer act like Him, we no longer are a Christian.

That is a works based salvation. We are forgiven for all our sins, past, present and future when we are saved. The question becomes, therefore, were they ever really saved to begin with? 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." One can "no longer" be a follower of Christ. Once you are one, you are always one. Or you never were one at all.

The notion that a believer who departs from the faith or sins to the point of falling away was never a believer in the first place is a logical fallacy because it presents only an “either – or” choice and ignores the alternate possibility that someone could indeed be a believer and subsequently forfeit his/her salvation. 1 Tim 4:1 states: “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” The Greek word here for “fall away” is apostesontai from which the English word apostasize is derived. So in this case it would not be wise to contradict the expressed teaching of the Holy Spirit that a saved person can apostasize from an original position, in this case, "the faith."

Your understanding of the type of person Scripture is talking about "falling away" is flawed. Those who fall away may be members of the Church, may have a deep knowledge of what it is like to be a Christian, may even have been baptized, or even a preacher of the word, and never have surrendered their life to Jesus Christ. Having all the knowledge in the world does not save, nor does it protect one from being deceived. Only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that comes with genuine salvation will guarantee that one cannot be deceived or fall away.

[JTC]

Your comments always show compassion and understanding and I greatly appreciate it. I am trying to make sense of things. I am usually able to walk away from the arguments but sometimes they happen in class, the question is by my Professor and it is difficult to get up and walk out at times. I do believe sexual sins are harder to judge especially in this day and age. And at the end of the day you are right that only Jesus can determine who will enter the gates. I can see this is simply a confusing topic in general...

Thank you for the compliment. I've been thinking how to reply for several days, and today it just came to me. I thought you were a student, I just wasn't sure if you're in HS or collage. I guess it's collage. To be honest with you, I don't feel this is so much a confusing topic as it is a difficult one. But again, I'm coming from over 30 years of asking these same questions. One thing I want to advise you on is don't become dogmatic in your thinking. Be patient, and always remain open to what the Holy Spirit will tell you. God has made me wait 10 and 15 years for certain knowledge. And then one day I'll be asking and the answer simply pops into my head. That's one way the Holy Spirit talks to me.

And for now, one more thing. In anyone's life, it's not over until it's over. Twenty three years ago I probably appeared as unsaved. I even doubted it myself. But here I am talking like I know something. I hope so. If I do, it's only because God gave me the interpretations. Without God I know nothing. And I believe He will do this in your life too.

[Elhanan]

I think that would make them a backsliding Christian. They will be forgiven if they repent and can start from scratch like new. But if they continue to do the same thing over and over again knowingly and willingly of the sin they are committing, then they're getting into some deep trouble there. Christian means "Christ-like", to act like Christ did, and we no longer act like Him, we no longer are a Christian.

That is a works based salvation. We are forgiven for all our sins, past, present and future when we are saved. The question becomes, therefore, were they ever really saved to begin with? 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." One can "no longer" be a follower of Christ. Once you are one, you are always one. Or you never were one at all.

The notion that a believer who departs from the faith or sins to the point of falling away was never a believer in the first place is a logical fallacy because it presents only an “either – or” choice and ignores the alternate possibility that someone could indeed be a believer and subsequently forfeit his/her salvation. 1 Tim 4:1 states: “But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” The Greek word here for “fall away” is apostesontai from which the English word apostasize is derived. So in this case it would not be wise to contradict the expressed teaching of the Holy Spirit that a saved person can apostasize from an original position, in this case, "the faith."

Your understanding of the type of person Scripture is talking about "falling away" is flawed. Those who fall away may be members of the Church, may have a deep knowledge of what it is like to be a Christian, may even have been baptized, or even a preacher of the word, and never have surrendered their life to Jesus Christ. Having all the knowledge in the world does not save, nor does it protect one from being deceived. Only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that comes with genuine salvation will guarantee that one cannot be deceived or fall away.

Not flawed. In the first place, by definition apostatize means to depart from a previously held position or belief. Therefore it is logically impossible for someone to apostasize or fall away from something that they never believed in or were never a part of in the first place. Secondly, the text specifically identifies that they apostatized from THE FAITH - not from church membership; not from deep knowledge of what it means to be a Christian; not from baptism; not from being a preacher. Your argument suffers from adding your own words/meanings to the text when it is plain that the text clearly states they fell away from the faith. Edited May 26, 2013 by Elhanan

[Guest]

And the Bible clearly states that it is GOD's will that Christ not loose even one of those He has been given. Nothing can remove us from His hand. Who can force the hand of GOD? You? Me? No! Not even Satan can do that. I don't rely on logic in order to try and understand GOD. Logic is what got humans into trouble in the first place. I'll rely on faith in the inerrant truth of the Bible, you can rely on your logic. If your logic tells you that you have the ability to be lost after being saved, well then .........

[nilolf]

For me it's clear from the Scripture that we as Christians are sinners who by repentence are forgiven through the grace of God in Christ. The Apostle Paul writes clearly about this to the Romans, and in other epistels. To the Corinthians, who were having big problems as a church, and some were even living imoral shameful lives, he calls them "sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holly" (1 Co 1:2), and on his second letter: "As fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. For he says, 'In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the time of salvation I helped you. ' I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the time of salvation." 2 Corinthians 6:1-2

God is clear in his Law about condemning sin and showing the consequences of it in eternity. At the same time, God's love is clearly ofered to everyone in the Gospel. There is always a last minute to someone to repent and be forgiven by God, through faith in Christ. But "Christian unrepentant in sin" - no! Repentence and forgiveness is the key to be and to remain a Christian!

And God knows all - so seems that we don't need to judge or to decide about who is or is not a Christian. Our role is so much needed as Chrisitians in this world, which is to proclaim to everyone and share through our lives what God has done for us in Christ so that many can belive and be part of God's Kingdom. I see it as a blessing and a priviledge!

[OneLight]

And the Bible clearly states that it is GOD's will that Christ not loose even one of those He has been given. Nothing can remove us from His hand. Who can force the hand of GOD? You? Me? No! Not even Satan can do that. I don't rely on logic in order to try and understand GOD. Logic is what got humans into trouble in the first place. I'll rely on faith in the inerrant truth of the Bible, you can rely on your logic. If your logic tells you that you have the ability to be lost after being saved, well then .........

Which is back to what I have said many times. Christ never looses anyone who chooses to remain His. He will also never stop anyone from leaving. He will do His best to "prick their heart" to try and change their mind and heart, but He will never force anyone to remain that does not to remain.