Gay Christians who choose celibacy.....

[GoldenEagle]

If they choose celibacy, then they will be saved. And if they chose to continue to be gay, then I think they will still be saved. I mean, why is it that 'homosexuals are not saved' is really the last big tenant of the OT laws that the Christian Right keeps?n why not all the other laws too? I say Christianity as a whole drops the gays can't be saved act. I personally think that gays should be celibate, but I can't force that upon them, nor can anyone else, nor the government, which should mostly stay out of its citizens private lives at all times expect in war.

Have you read what the Bible has to say about shell-fish and dietary laws? It is an argument that many who haven't read the Bible and/or who are non-Believers will try to bring into the mix when discussing homosexuality.

Regarding shell-fish and dietary laws… Please look at this passage in Mark 7 and what Jesus said to His disciples regarding food with particular emphasis on verse 18.

Mark 7:17-23

¹⁷ When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. ¹⁸ So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, ¹⁹ because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” ²⁰ And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. ²¹ For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, ²² thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. ²³ All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

So food is no longer unclean. The exception to this is in not offending a fellow Believers conscience regarding food offered to idols in 1 Corinthians 10 (I’ll address this in a separate post) and not to offend Christian converts from Judaism in Romans 14. Yet Paul claimed that he was free to eat anything and so are other Christians.

Paul warns of trying to re-instate Jewish dietary laws… Particular emphasis on verse 3.

1 Tim. 4:1-5

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, ² speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, ³forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. ⁴ For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; ⁵ for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Dietary laws are a return to legalistic ways of the law. Food, drink, festivals, or even Sabbaths are not mandatory any longer for the Christian. Pay particular attention to verse 14.

Col 2:11-19

¹¹ In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins

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of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, ¹² buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. ¹³ And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, ¹⁴ having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. ¹⁵ Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

¹⁶ So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, ¹⁷ which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. ¹⁸ Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, ¹⁹ and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

Thoughts on these passages?

God bless,
GE

[GoldenEagle]

So food is no longer unclean. The exception to this is in not offending a fellow Believers conscience regarding food offered to idols in 1 Corinthians 10 (I’ll address this in a separate post) and not to offend Christian converts from Judaism in Romans 14. Yet Paul claimed that he was free to eat anything and so are other Christians.

So pork and all forms of meat (food with blood) are addressed in this passage below. The Christian is no longer limited to eating food dedicated to idols. (Vs. 25-26)

However, if a Christian finds out it was dedicated to idols for the sake of witness one should abstain from eating this food. Not because it is wrong but to help a weaker brother or sister in Christ not stumble. (Vs. 28)

1 Cor. 10

All to the Glory of God

²³ All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. ²⁴ Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being.

²⁵ Eat whatever ²⁶ for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.” is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake;

²⁷ If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. ²⁸ But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.” ²⁹ “Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? ³⁰ But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks?

³¹ Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. ³² Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, ³³ just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Thoughts on this passage?

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

WE are not the one's who will decide who is worthy and who is not.

I don't think anyone is judging who is "worthy" for heaven, as none of us is worthy.

Deciding to fight a sinful desire is very hard and God may recognize that. He knows we are weak, He knows our every thought.

So what?? Choosing to fight a particular sinful desire is commendable, but is a practice in futility. These gays are ignoring the real problem, which is the fact that they need Jesus. They don't need to change, or turn over a new leaf or modify their behavior. They need Jesus to save them and deliver them completely from the desire. He is the only solution to their problem. They don't consider being gay a sin and that goes against everything in Scripture.

Declaring that ANYONE is not worthy of salvation is an attempt to usurp God's right to judge as He sees fit and is a sin in itself.

Wrong. YOU are not worthy of salvation. I am not worthy of salvation. No one is. Delcaring that we are not worthy of it is in accordance with what the Bible says. That is why it is a gift and not something we earn or deserve. Gays can get saved, but when they do, they are no longer gay because of the transformatoin of the heart. There are no gay Christians anymore than there are Christian atheists. Homosexuality is a spiritual stronghold that only the power of God is adequate to deal with.

[Guest shiloh357]

If they choose celibacy, then they will be saved. And if they chose to continue to be gay, then I think they will still be saved.

Nope. Not at all. Salvation doesn't work that way.

I mean, why is it that 'homosexuals are not saved' is really the last big tenant of the OT laws that the Christian Right keeps?n why not all the other laws too?

Why is homosexuality always the one sin Christians can live in and practice on a regular basis and no one questions whether or not such a person is saved? We don't reward pedophiles, murderers, thieves, rapists, drunk drivers, makers of porn, buddhists, hindus, and people in false religions in such ways. Why is it that people seek to treat gays as if they are an endangered species and that their sin isn't really sin??? Why the double standard?

I say Christianity as a whole drops the gays can't be saved act.

Can't do that because God has already said that those who practice such things will enter the Kingdom of Heaven (I Cor. 6;9) You need to come in line with Scripture.

[Littlelambseativy]

Are we forgetting that these are Christian homosexuals? The only thing in the Bible that i can see is that one man should not lie with another that is sin in the OT unto death are we under the law or under Grace if law keep them all - But did Jesus not die for ALL our sins? if these me who do not partake in the act of him homosexuality and should they at any time look at another with lust is that not a sin under the blood? Men or women who are heterosexual lust the moment they look at another - what do they do but ask the Father for forgiveness is that right not permitted to the homosexuals only to the straight?? I am so Glad that the Heavenly Father is the Judge because I know that by thought, word, deed, omission , commission by our standards none of us would see heaven. If Jesus died for ALL sin and but it under the blood I do not condemn them but let the Holy One, the Righteous Judge, judge all of us. We should look at ourselves and our sin before we so harshly judge another. What did Jesus say - take the beam out of your eye before you attempt to take the sliver out of another's eye.

[Guest shiloh357]

Are we forgetting that these are Christian homosexuals?

One cannot be a homosexual AND a Christian. One can be an ex-homosexual who still struggles with temptation in a sincere desire to serve the Lord, but the people in the OP are not Chrsitans in the sense that they are genuine followers of Jesus.

The only thing in the Bible that i can see is that one man should not lie with another that is sin in the OT unto death are we under the law or under Grace if law keep them all - But did Jesus not die for ALL our sins? if these me who do not partake in the act of him homosexuality and should they at any time look at another with lust is that not a sin under the blood?

Hoo boy... You really need to understand how the Bible approaches sin. Homsexual desire is a sin. To desire a member of the same sex in a sexual manner is a sin with or without lust. Lusting after a member of the opposite sex is just as sinful. Jesus died for our sins, but we are still commanded to holy. We are still commanded to flee from sin. We are under grace, but that doesn't mean we compromise and pretend that one can be gay and be a Christian.

Men or women who are heterosexual lust the moment they look at another - what do they do but ask the Father for forgiveness is that right not permitted to the homosexuals only to the straight??

Yes it is offered to them as well. The whole point behind repenting and asking for forgiveness is that you recognize your sin and seek to reject it and live according to Scripture and that begins with the heart. Homsexuals need to repent of not only the act but also the very desire and come to Jesus for deliverance. We are not to coddle them and telll them they can still be gay and love Jesus. Doesn't work that way. Just as heterosexuals need to repent of their sinful heart desires and come to Jesus, so do the gays.

I am so Glad that the Heavenly Father is the Judge because I know that by thought, word, deed, omission , commission by our standards none of us would see heaven. If Jesus died for ALL sin and but it under the blood I do not condemn them but let the Holy One, the Righteous Judge, judge all of us. We should look at ourselves and our sin before we so harshly judge another. What did Jesus say - take the beam out of your eye before you attempt to take the sliver out of another's eye.

But we are not judging them. Our job is to tell them they, because of their sinful lifestyle, are already under God's judgment. Our job is to call them to repent, not tell them that they are okay as gays. It is not wrong to point out that sinners are under God's judgment. One point to be made is that we ARE allowed to judge the lifestyles that God has already judged and we are allowed to say what God has already said. We are not issuing our own judgment, but we are warning others. The most unloving thing we can do is pretend that one can be gay and still be a Christian. If they were Christians they would have repented of every vestige of homosexuality in their heart and flee from it. It is really that simple.

[Guest shiloh357]

But Jesus didn't teach celibacy. Celibacy is not abstinence. The root of celibacy is that it is a form of asceticism meant to earn God's favor by abstaining from physical pleasures. The Bible doesn't teach that at all. God has given us pleasure to enjoy as long as it is enjoyed in godly way. That they are not living in a gay relationship doesn't mean anything so long as they remain gay. They are not repentant so long as they remain gay. The sin is still in their heart and simply not living it out doesn't really address the problem.

How do you know what is in their heart? They are still in this flesh and will continue to struggle with this sinful nature until the flesh is put off. For you to say they are not repentant puts you in a seat that you have no right to. Shiloh get of of our Lord's seat you have no place there. You can attempt to justify your position, but there is none. You have made it clear that you see in the innermost part of people with your comments. I implore you to be careful, though I believe you will say you don't have to do anything because of some conjured up reason. You will be judged in the same manner please remember that and take those words to heart. Especially when it comes to who you attempt to say is repentant and not. You have no idea, so please once again get of our Lord's seat.

It is one thing to struggle as a repentant gay person and continue to battle temptation. I am not talking about that. But as long as one remains gay and thinks that they need not repent of it because it is not a sin, whether they are sexually active or not, they are still under God's judgement. They are not repentant. Homsexuality is an abomination before God a person indewlt by the Holy Spirit would be repentant of that sin. They are not claiming to be repentant, as according to the OP they don't think being gay is a sin. They are tryingn to be celibate, but that is an activity of the flesh, not of the Spirit.

I am not judging them. They are already under God's judgment. He has already judged that lifestyle and He has already said that homosexuals will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (I Cor. 6:9) That is not me talking.

[Guest shiloh357]

You assume that being gay automatically makes you lustful.

No, I think it makes you a sinner. I used the issue of lust to illustrate a point about how sin begins the heart. Homosexual desire is sinful according to Scripture.

Your stance is obviously prejudice and non rational.

My stance is based on the clear statements from the Bible. I am sorry you don't like what the Bible says about homosexuality.

The same logic would say that a heterosexual is automatically lusting after women, thus guilty of the same sin as the homosexual

You are confused. What I am saying is that lusting after a member of the opposite sex is as sinsful as homosexual desire. They are both perversions of God's plan for human sexuality.

Shiloh one question for you...Are you a liar?

No. Are you?

[GoldenEagle]

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God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

Does anyone here believe that an adult male who lusts after little children and sees them as sexual objects, but doesn't actually act on it, can be a genuine follower of Jesus Christ??

Does a man who fuels his lust with porn and views women as sex objects everywhere he goes but doesn't act on those feelings qualify as a genuine follower of Jesus?

If a man has hates people and fantasizes about shooting up a shopping mall or a elementary school but doesn't actually carry out those fantasies be considered genuine follower of Jesus?

What other sin could person entertain in their heart and seriuosly desire to carry out without actually doing it and still be an authentic Christian? Ohter than Homosexuality?? Why is homosexuality singled as the ONE sin listed in the Bible that isn't REALLY a sin? Why is it singled out as the one sin you can harbor in your heart and it not be problematic or inconsistent with the Christian life???