The Confusing thing about the Rapture is...

[Elhanan]

 

 

Read: Revelation 16:15

(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)

This scripture specifically indicates that the Lord will return well into the tribulation period and is made reference to right in the midst of the bowl judgments.  Scripture does not contradict itself and to maintain that the rapture and the return of the Lord takes place before the tribulation does not square with this verse. That's why on numerous occasions the saints are encouraged to persevere and overcome.

 

 

No, scripture does not indicate what you say.

 

If the Rapture (not Christ's return) occurs mid-trib or post-trib, the Body of Christ would be able to gauge each manifestation, so Jesus' "any moment" warning would be useless, wouldn't it?

 

Matthew 24:36

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

 

Matthew 24:42-46

“So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. ⁴³ Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would keep watch and not permit his house to be broken into. ⁴⁴ You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.

⁴⁵ “A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. ⁴⁶ If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward.

 

Matthew 25:13

 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return.

 

Acts 1:7

He replied, “The Father alone has the authority to set those dates and times, and they are not for you to know.

 

 

 

As the early church always greeted each other with "Maranatha", which means 'the Lord come', I should think it would be rendered meaningless (according to your view), there being a lack of evidence that the Tribulation was upon them at any time.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 1:10

And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:6

So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded.

 

One of the primary rules in hermeneutics is that a clearer passage of scripture takes precedent and is to be favored over a more obscure passage or interpretation. The reference to Jesus returning as a thief is plainly referenced in Rev 16 toward the end of the tribulation and not before the tribulation as you would prefer to believe. I prefer to leave it where the apostle John placed it in the midst of the bowl judgments as believing this verse as describing a pretribulation event is clearly taking it out of context.

Also your claim that being able to judge each "manifestation" during the tribulation would render the phrase "any moment" useless is not accurate. The verses you cite, declare that we will not know the specific “day or hour.” They do not say that we cannot judge the “manifestations” in the more general terms of “times and seasons.” In fact Jesus encourages us to watch for such “manifestations” to use your word.

Jesus, in the Olivet discourse, tells us to watch for the signs and uses the fig tree as an example. In Matthew 24:32-33 He says, "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door." He goes on in verse 36 to tell us that we do not know the day or the hour, but as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:1, we do know the times and the seasons.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Elhanan

[Montana Marv]

The Timing of the Rapture is not foretold in the Scriptures.  There are no verses that can be tied to this event.  There is no validation of Scriptures for the Rapture happening during the 70th week or beyond.  Zero, Nada, Nope, Absolutely none. 

 

One must look at Scripture  Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

If one looks at John 1:1,2 and 14 - In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.  The the Word became flesh (Jesus Christ the Son) and dwelt among us.   

 

 

Both the spoken Word and the written Word are from Jesus the Son.  The Bible is the Word, in John 1:1, 2, 14.  So If Jesus the Son (the Word, the Bible) does not know the timing of the Rapture; it is not found in the Bible.  Mid-trib, Pre- wrath, Post-trib doctrines have no Scriptural support.  No validation.  Just a Big Maybe.  The timing of the Rapture is a mystery of God, and Him only.  Watch and be ready, Now, not tomorrow.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Elhanan]

Montana Marv- you reply is similar in nature to Floatingaxe - rather than respond to you separately, just refer to my response to her as I have already answered the "day or hour" objection.

[MorningGlory]

 

Kids.....please!  Why does the Rapture always end up in fighting among the brethren?  None of us have the last word; God reserves that for Himself.

That is dead center of point...

 

[MorningGlory]

 

 

I have just refuted every point you have made and you have not specifically responded to my counterpoints.  Instead, you are wedded to a dispensational viewpoint which forces you to eisegete rather than exegete the scriptures and consequently your argument falls on its own accord.  Let me demonstrate the folly of your position.  Since you are pre-trib you believe that the church is raptured before the 7 year tribulation.  Therefore it is the Jews to whom God is dealing with during this tribulation time.  The problem with your claim is that the word "saints" which is mentioned throughout the book of Revelation always refers to the church in the NT.  Israel is never referred to as the "saints". Secondly, as I pointed out earlier in Rev 7:14 there are those who are coming out of the great tribulation - who are these people?  You claim they are the Jews to whom God is ministering to during the great tribulation.  Your claim is bogus as Rev 7:9-10 clearly describes them as "a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  This certainly does not describe the nation of Israel and clearly demonstrates that either your pre-trib position is wrong as Rev 7:9 is describing the church coming out of the great tribulation. If you still protest and blindly stick with your pre-tribulation belief that the church is raptured before the tribulation, then you have no choice but to characterize these people described in Rev 7:9-10 as "tribulation saints" - i.e. those who repent and come to Christ after the supposed rapture and during the tribulation.  But then that would destroy your own argument that no one comes to repentance during the tribulation.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

You have attempted to refute what I believe, but there is no such hard and fast refutation, really. Despite your fancy words, I rely on what Holy Spirit says to me. God is dispensational, and has always been so, no matter what you choose to think.

 

As for 'saints', they are all who have received the Messiah, which includes Jews. Revelation 7:9-10 refers to all those who come to Christ during the Tribulation. There will be some! However the word of God does tells us many times how the wicked refuse to repent despite the many opportunities they are given in the onslaught of the judgments of God. These are NOT the Church, but are added in as Tribulation saints.

 

I simply take God's word for what it says.

 

Yes there is no hard and fast refutation for those who refuse to interact with the scriptural text and rely upon their unfounded opinion but that of course is your prerogative. No fancy words here; just straight forward reading of the text minus your doctrinal bias. You initially made the broad and unsubstantiated claim that "none of those who suffer the judgments repent."  Now after my reply, you backtrack and admit "there will be some."  If you think you take the word of God for what it says by all means go for it.  I'll just cease posting on this thread since it is quite non-productive.

 

How about just accepting the fact that F.A. has her own opinions and, regardless of who is right or who is wrong, you will both enter the same Kingdom.  This is not an issue that affects one's salvation and NONE of us know for sure what is going to happen.  God reserves that right for Himself.    

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

Read: Revelation 16:15

(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)

This scripture specifically indicates that the Lord will return well into the tribulation period and is made reference to right in the midst of the bowl judgments.  Scripture does not contradict itself and to maintain that the rapture and the return of the Lord takes place before the tribulation does not square with this verse. That's why on numerous occasions the saints are encouraged to persevere and overcome.

 

 

No, scripture does not indicate what you say.

 

If the Rapture (not Christ's return) occurs mid-trib or post-trib, the Body of Christ would be able to gauge each manifestation, so Jesus' "any moment" warning would be useless, wouldn't it?

 

Matthew 24:36

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

 

Matthew 24:42-46

“So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. ⁴³ Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would keep watch and not permit his house to be broken into. ⁴⁴ You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.

⁴⁵ “A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. ⁴⁶ If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward.

 

Matthew 25:13

 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return.

 

Acts 1:7

He replied, “The Father alone has the authority to set those dates and times, and they are not for you to know.

 

 

 

As the early church always greeted each other with "Maranatha", which means 'the Lord come', I should think it would be rendered meaningless (according to your view), there being a lack of evidence that the Tribulation was upon them at any time.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 1:10

And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:6

So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded.

 

One of the primary rules in hermeneutics is that a clearer passage of scripture takes precedent and is to be favored over a more obscure passage or interpretation. The reference to Jesus returning as a thief is plainly referenced in Rev 16 toward the end of the tribulation and not before the tribulation as you would prefer to believe. I prefer to leave it where the apostle John placed it in the midst of the bowl judgments as believing this verse as describing a pretribulation event is clearly taking it out of context.

Also your claim that being able to judge each "manifestation" during the tribulation would render the phrase "any moment" useless is not accurate. The verses you cite, declare that we will not know the specific “day or hour.” They do not say that we cannot judge the “manifestations” in the more general terms of “times and seasons.” In fact Jesus encourages us to watch for such “manifestations” to use your word.

Jesus, in the Olivet discourse, tells us to watch for the signs and uses the fig tree as an example. In Matthew 24:32-33 He says, "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; even so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door." He goes on in verse 36 to tell us that we do not know the day or the hour, but as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:1, we do know the times and the seasons.

 

 

 

I don't find any passage unclear or obscure. When ALL those things come together as occurring at the same general time, those who are of the elect (Israel) need to be looking for Jesus. The Bride will already be at the Wedding.

 

As for the OP, there is nothing confusing about this for me. No one has it all down pat, but I am completely at peace with the glimpse that Holy Spirit has given me. It jives with scripture and millions of other believers' understanding, not to mention those who have experienced visions from the Lord about these very things.

[Elhanan]

floatingaxe - the problem as I see it when we discuss things is that you make a point - for example you say that believers don't know the day or the hour.  I acknowledge your point as being true about the day/hour but I offer a counterpoint regarding the times & seasons to advance my viewpoint.  Rather than acknowledge my point or offer a specific counterpoint to advance your own view, you reply that you are at peace with your view and refer to millions of others who happen to share your view. I am sure you are sincere in your beliefs as am I but in discussing these matters, you or I could be sincerely wrong.  Therefore I prefer discussions where we wrestle with the text or specific points made in order to gain a better understanding; otherwise as I said earlier it becomes a nonproductive exercise for me.

[Floatingaxe]

floatingaxe - the problem as I see it when we discuss things is that you make a point - for example you say that believers don't know the day or the hour.  I acknowledge your point as being true about the day/hour but I offer a counterpoint regarding the times & seasons to advance my viewpoint.  Rather than acknowledge my point or offer a specific counterpoint to advance your own view, you reply that you are at peace with your view and refer to millions of others who happen to share your view. I am sure you are sincere in your beliefs as am I but in discussing these matters, you or I could be sincerely wrong.  Therefore I prefer discussions where we wrestle with the text or specific points made in order to gain a better understanding; otherwise as I said earlier it becomes a nonproductive exercise for me.

 

We are all aware of what the Lord tells us regarding the times and seasons. There is nothing new, there.

 

It doesn't matter one little bit if you or I are wrong. God is right, and I will fall right in line with His plan.

[chance]

1. People misinterpret the 70th Week of Daniel to be one 7-year tribulation period (when it is two 3.5-year tribulations).

 

2. People mistake the Christians' "out" in the Great Tribulation as an "out" from all tribulation or turmoil or strife... and as Chuck Missler says... this goes against what most Christians have suffered through most of history.

 

The "out " that we have is that as far as God is concerned, the wrath that we justly deserve was meted out on the cross of Christ. The Great Tribulation is God's wrath poured out on the unbelieving and the devil. The preceding tribulation will be the devil's wrath against God (which is directed at his people... remember how Jesus asked Paul who persecuted the Church "Why do you persecute ME?").

 

Revelation 12:17 (NKJV)

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Revelation 13:5-10 (NKJV)

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

The one rapture will take place

PRE- great tribulation

MID- 70th Week of Daniel (which is not traditional Mid-trib because it subscribes to the one 7-year tribulation period)

POST- believer's tribulation

 

So all three camps had the scriptures quotes right to back them up they just got the 70th Week of Daniel wrong...

 

 

{click on image to enlarge}

 

Daniel 7:25 (NKJV)

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

 

time + times + 1/2 time (3 1/2 years) also in:

 

Revelation 12:14 (NKJV)

14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

 

the same as:

 

Revelation 11:2 (NKJV)

2 “But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

 

Revelation 13:5 (NKJV)

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

 

and in:

 

Revelation 11:3 (NKJV)

3 “And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

 

Revelation 12:6 (NKJV)

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

 

All 3 1/2 years to a Prophetic 360-day year.

I believe that the tribulation period is one seven year event. It's just that the last half is going to be much worse then the first half. 3.5 plus 3.5 equals 7 years. Myself or anyone else must make sure that we are not to dogmatic about it, we could all be wrong.lol

[missmuffet]

 

1. People misinterpret the 70th Week of Daniel to be one 7-year tribulation period (when it is two 3.5-year tribulations).

 

2. People mistake the Christians' "out" in the Great Tribulation as an "out" from all tribulation or turmoil or strife... and as Chuck Missler says... this goes against what most Christians have suffered through most of history.

 

The "out " that we have is that as far as God is concerned, the wrath that we justly deserve was meted out on the cross of Christ. The Great Tribulation is God's wrath poured out on the unbelieving and the devil. The preceding tribulation will be the devil's wrath against God (which is directed at his people... remember how Jesus asked Paul who persecuted the Church "Why do you persecute ME?").

 

Revelation 12:17 (NKJV)

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Revelation 13:5-10 (NKJV)

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

The one rapture will take place

PRE- great tribulation

MID- 70th Week of Daniel (which is not traditional Mid-trib because it subscribes to the one 7-year tribulation period)

POST- believer's tribulation

 

So all three camps had the scriptures quotes right to back them up they just got the 70th Week of Daniel wrong...

 

 

{click on image to enlarge}

 

Daniel 7:25 (NKJV)

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

 

time + times + 1/2 time (3 1/2 years) also in:

 

Revelation 12:14 (NKJV)

14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

 

the same as:

 

Revelation 11:2 (NKJV)

2 “But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

 

Revelation 13:5 (NKJV)

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

 

and in:

 

Revelation 11:3 (NKJV)

3 “And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

 

Revelation 12:6 (NKJV)

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

 

All 3 1/2 years to a Prophetic 360-day year.

I believe that the tribulation period is one seven year event. It's just that the last half is going to be much worse then the first half. 3.5 plus 3.5 equals 7 years. Myself or anyone else must make sure that we are not to dogmatic about it, we could all be wrong.lol

 

Maybe you have already stated this but do you believe that the rapture comes before this tribulation starts?