Salvation is just by faith and not by works

[thereselittleflower]

 

Works within the realm of grace , not works according to the old law , must have a part in our entry into the Father's Kingdom otherwise what Jesus says must be wrong .

He teaches that our reception of eternal life is dependent on the good works we do , good works within the realm of grace , not good works according to the old law .

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

The problem with your logic is that the Bible doesn't describe any works that are not contained either directly, or in principle as being unconnected to the law.

What people don't understand that is that every moral action you take  in life is either a violation of God's law or is done in keeping with God's law.   You cannot define "love"  apart from God's law because the NT teaches that "Love"  is the fulfillment of the law.   Jesus said that the entire law of Moses falls under the categories of loving God or loving man.   So you cannot walk in genuine love without fulfilling the law of Moses.  

The fruit of the spirit can be viewed in the context of the first five books of Moses because the fruit  of the spirit amounts to being love manifested eight different ways.  Every principle of the NT stems from the theological seed-bed that is laid down for us in the first five books of Moses.  The NT quotes extensively from the law in order to teach its principles.

So this notion that we do good works but not "Law"  works creates a false dichotomy about works that the Bible never makes.   There is no such thing as "works" in the realm of grace, vs. "works" in the realm of law.

The passage here in Matt. 23 is a prophecy about Jesus will judge the nations but is not stating that works is necessary for salvation.   The way you know the sheep from the goats is by their works.   Their works did is not what made them sheep or goats.  Their works revealed what they were.   Your works demonstrate your salvation.  They don't make you saved, but they reveal if you are saved or not.    You have every thing backwards.  

I'm sorry but you're simply contradicting scripture which tells us

Faith without works is dead.

 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

James 2

 

 

 

By the way, you cannot be saved if you are not also justified.  

 

 

 

 

  James is not talking about salvation.  

 

 

James IS talking about salvation .

He says : " What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? "

 

 

He 

 

Ni

 I guess it would have taken a bit more integrity than you can muster to actually quote everything I said.   I explained what I meant in my previous comments which you conveniently ignored.   James is not talking about salvation  in terms of how a person is saved.   James is not saying that we are not saved by faith alone.   James is saying that empty professions of faith, and mere mental assent can't save anyone because it isn't actual faith.

Real faith produces corresponding action. That's the test of genuine faith.  Does it produce corresponding actions?  Do those actions agree with your words?   James is a book about practical Christian living;  it is not a book about how to become a Christian.  It is written to Christians about how live out their Christian lives.    James 2 is the heart of that subject and James is making the point that  just as Abraham and Rahab and others were affirmed in their profession of faith based on what they did, it is the same with us.   Our works justify (affirm, support) our profession of faith in the sight of men.  It is through the things we do, that others know that our faith is genuine.

Robin hood understands quite well what James is saying.

Those who say James is not speaking of salvation are merely making the scriptures to be of no effect, denying the very plain language of scripture itself.

 

 

 

Neither of you understand what James is saying.   You completely ignore the context so you can promote a works-based system of salvation which is anathema to the teachings of Paul.   James isn't talking about how to get saved and I made that clear to Robin Hood.   James is talking about how our works affirm our faith, not that we are justified redemptively through our works.  

No Shiloh.    he is talking about how good works are necessary WITH our faith for salvation.

He goes so far as to say good works are like the spirit to the body and faith is like the body.

Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

 

Likening good works to the spirit turns everything you are saying on its head.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Works within the realm of grace , not works according to the old law , must have a part in our entry into the Father's Kingdom otherwise what Jesus says must be wrong .

He teaches that our reception of eternal life is dependent on the good works we do , good works within the realm of grace , not good works according to the old law .

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

The problem with your logic is that the Bible doesn't describe any works that are not contained either directly, or in principle as being unconnected to the law.

What people don't understand that is that every moral action you take  in life is either a violation of God's law or is done in keeping with God's law.   You cannot define "love"  apart from God's law because the NT teaches that "Love"  is the fulfillment of the law.   Jesus said that the entire law of Moses falls under the categories of loving God or loving man.   So you cannot walk in genuine love without fulfilling the law of Moses.  

The fruit of the spirit can be viewed in the context of the first five books of Moses because the fruit  of the spirit amounts to being love manifested eight different ways.  Every principle of the NT stems from the theological seed-bed that is laid down for us in the first five books of Moses.  The NT quotes extensively from the law in order to teach its principles.

So this notion that we do good works but not "Law"  works creates a false dichotomy about works that the Bible never makes.   There is no such thing as "works" in the realm of grace, vs. "works" in the realm of law.

The passage here in Matt. 23 is a prophecy about Jesus will judge the nations but is not stating that works is necessary for salvation.   The way you know the sheep from the goats is by their works.   Their works did is not what made them sheep or goats.  Their works revealed what they were.   Your works demonstrate your salvation.  They don't make you saved, but they reveal if you are saved or not.    You have every thing backwards.  

I'm sorry but you're simply contradicting scripture which tells us

Faith without works is dead.

 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

James 2

 

 

 

By the way, you cannot be saved if you are not also justified.  

 

 

 

 

  James is not talking about salvation.  

 

 

James IS talking about salvation .

He says : " What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? "

 

 

He 

 

Ni

 I guess it would have taken a bit more integrity than you can muster to actually quote everything I said.   I explained what I meant in my previous comments which you conveniently ignored.   James is not talking about salvation  in terms of how a person is saved.   James is not saying that we are not saved by faith alone.   James is saying that empty professions of faith, and mere mental assent can't save anyone because it isn't actual faith.

Real faith produces corresponding action. That's the test of genuine faith.  Does it produce corresponding actions?  Do those actions agree with your words?   James is a book about practical Christian living;  it is not a book about how to become a Christian.  It is written to Christians about how live out their Christian lives.    James 2 is the heart of that subject and James is making the point that  just as Abraham and Rahab and others were affirmed in their profession of faith based on what they did, it is the same with us.   Our works justify (affirm, support) our profession of faith in the sight of men.  It is through the things we do, that others know that our faith is genuine.

Robin hood understands quite well what James is saying.

Those who say James is not speaking of salvation are merely making the scriptures to be of no effect, denying the very plain language of scripture itself.

 

 

 

Neither of you understand what James is saying.   You completely ignore the context so you can promote a works-based system of salvation which is anathema to the teachings of Paul.   James isn't talking about how to get saved and I made that clear to Robin Hood.   James is talking about how our works affirm our faith, not that we are justified redemptively through our works.  

 

No Shiloh.    he is talking about how good works are necessary WITH our faith for salvation.

He goes so far as to say good works are like the spirit to the body and faith is like the body.

Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

 

Likening good works to the spirit turns everything you are saying on its head.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

James says no such thing.  That doesn't even fit the context.   James is saying that our faith is justified by our works.   He is not saying we are saved by works.    A truly biblical faith produces good works that correspond with our profession of faith.  Nothing in James' words can be shown that he is talking about how we are saved.  He is talking about how we live our salvation through our works.   That's why he says, "show me your faith without works (which is impossible) and I will show you my faith by what I do."   It's pretty straight forward, what he is saying.    You are confusing with your dismally poor biblical interpretation skils.  

[Steve_S]

This one is getting personal and has probably ran it's course. Locked.