Who is groaning? Understanding Romans 8:26

[GoldenEagle]

You are belittling in that case the advice of Paul to seek greater gifts.

 

Perhaps. Or perhaps your not understanding what OneLight is trying to communicate?

 

You mention "greater gifts." I assume you're referencing this passage. Is this advice or a command? Does this nullify those that are considered "lesser gifts" then?

 

1 Cor. 12:31 (NASB)

But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

 

Yet let's look at this passage in context... Particlularly I'd like to draw attention to the second part of the chapter Onelight quoted. The eye cannot say to the hand "I have no need of you" or to the feet "I have no need of you." The pinky toe is a very small section of the body. Yet, have you ever thought about how much balance the pinky gives to us when walking? The members of the body which seem to some weaker are necessary. No part of the Body of Christ is more important than the other. And let's remember too that the head of the Church is Christ. God has placed the members, each one, in the Body just as He desired.

 

1 Cor. 12:14-31

 

¹⁴ For the body is not one member, but many. ¹⁵ If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason ^[k]any the less a part of the body. ¹⁶ And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason ^[l]any the less a part of the body. ¹⁷ If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? ¹⁸ But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. ¹⁹ If they were all one member, where would the body be? ²⁰ But now there are many members, but one body. ²¹ And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” ²² On the contrary, ^[m]it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; ²³ and those members of the body which we ^[n]deem less honorable, ^[o]on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, ²⁴ whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, ²⁵ so that there may be no ^[p]division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. ²⁶ And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is ^[q]honored, all the members rejoice with it.

 

²⁷ Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. ²⁸ And God has ^[r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then ^[s]miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. ²⁹ All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of ^[t]miracles, are they? ³⁰ All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? ³¹ But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

And I show you a still more excellent way.

 

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

After going back over the post I realized I had missed a section...

 

What I mean is that  it may be translation problems. Why should the Holy Spirit, knower of all languages, groan? Is He short of words? Please remember Paul's writings have been distorted by many right from his time. Will not that degrade the Holy Spirit by such an understanding when it is not supported anywhere else in the Bible?

 

Gifts are given for common good. It will have direct effect on receiver by the giver. In case of unknown tongue so such direct result takes place. An interpreter is brought in. No where God works on an agent's agent. He deals directly through one person chosen for that purpose. All prophecies need to be verified. What kind of check is made in case of interpretaton? Any word of God cannot go as a waste, but it happens when there is no interpretation. That contradicts the ways of God.

 

 

Who says the Holy Spirit is short on words when He groans for us? Perhaps it is simply we cannot put into words what we'd like to say to God. Yet the Holy Spirit helps us and God knows our thoughts, heart, and motivation even when we do not. I don't think speaking in tongues in any way, shape, or form degrades the Holy Spirit. Where do you see Bliblcal evidence otherwise?

 

Gifts are not given for the common good. That is where you misunderstand the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The gifts are given for God's glory, for edification of the Church, and according to God's will.

You are repeating yourself again. Prophecies can be verified if they are 100% true (they come to fruition) and match what is in the Scripture - the BIble. The only time words go to waste is when in public the use of speaking of tongues has no interpretation. The contradiction is probably in your mind as to how you percieve this matter - not the ways of God.

 

God bless,

GE

[OneLight]

I would be very careful saying scripture itself is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. In fact, that is impossible. If you don't want to accept scripture, that is your choice, but making statements like that will do no less then grieve the Spirit.

 

I am speaking of misleading interpretation on Scripture. Yes, one can grieve Him, not make Him groan!

I have found no place in scripture where it said people made the Holy Spirit groan. In fact, it says the Holy Spirit Himself did the groaning, so your premise is derived from an error you are making and your argument is based on this error.

 

 

In the many years I have studied this, I have come to realize that there are some who will right out refuse to accept tongues even if the Spirit Himself moved them to speak in such. They have set their feet so firmly in disbelief to the point of even referring to speaking in tongues as demonic.

 

I am not disclaiming the speaking of known tongue moved by the Holy Spirit that does not require an interpreter. What was happening is Corinth was speaking of unknown tongue moved by person's spirit.

The fact is, scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit gives gifts according to His will. If He gives a gift of tongues, be it a known or unknown tongue, it is His will to do so. When ones operated in the gift of prophecy, are they doing this with their own spirit of are they guided by God? What about the gift of healing? Does that come from the person or from God. You cannot separate on gift from the others and claim it is different. People are moved by the Spirit to operate within a gift.

 

 

If you don't believe, as it has been said, then don't. By judging others for how they themselves are led by God, denying parts of scripture in doing so, you are causing more discord then you realize. Nobody is forcing you to accept any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and do realize that it is the Holy Spirit who gives out the gifts, not Paul.

 

Right. But the person is using that with the help of his spirit, not the Holy Spirit who has no part to play once the gift is given for common good.

That is incorrect. See my questions above ... where do the operations within the gift come from. Does the spirit of man have the ability to heal, prophesy, perform miracles, or use the gift of knowledge? Read the passage below. Scripture does not separate any of the gifts as these are from God and these are from man. That is the error you are walking in.

1 Corinthians 12:1-11

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

The italics and underlining are mine to point you to the truth in scripture.

 

What I mean is that  it may be translation problems. Why should the Holy Spirit, knower of all languages, groan? Is He short of words? Please remember Paul's writings have been distorted by many right from his time. Will not that degrade the Holy Spirit by such an understanding when it is not supported anywhere else in the Bible?

Every word of the bible was given to us through the moving of the Holy Spirit in holy men chosen by God. Not one verse degrades another. It is the minds of men that degrades scripture.

You say that Paul's words may of been distorted, so to prove his words are not distorted, read below Romans 8:26

AS-SAMEly YET also THE spirit is-aiding the infirmities OF-US THE for what? WE-SHOULD-BE-prayING according-to-what it-must-be NOT we-are-aware but itself THE spirit is-pleading-for-us for-the-side-os US to-groanings inarticulate.

The word that means to-grownings is stenagmois G4726, which states:

To Groan. A groaning, sighing, as of the oppressed, referring to prayers to God expressed inarticulately.

 

Gifts are given for common good. It will have direct effect on receiver by the giver. In case of unknown tongue so such direct result takes place. An interpreter is brought in. No where God works on an agent's agent. He deals directly through one person chosen for that purpose. All prophecies need to be verified. What kind of check is made in case of interpretaton? Any word of God cannot go as a waste, but it happens when there is no interpretation. That contradicts the ways of God.

It is becoming ever so clear that you do not understand how the operations of the gifts function. God works through us Himself. He gave us the gift for a witness of Himself. Hebrews 2:1-4

Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

1 Corinthians 1:4-9

I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

And, once again, 1 Corinthians 12:4-11

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

 

You are belittling in that case the advice of Paul to seek greater gifts.

What is being belittled is your understanding of scripture pertaining to the Holy Spirit and His gifts. We are baptized in the Holy Spirit. His power work through us. It is not our to do what we think He wants us to do. Without Him, we would have no gifts or even understanding the truth of scripture. Who works in and through us is the Holy Spirit, not us doing thing for Him. The opnly credit man can ever take is getting out of His way.

[missmuffet]

So,Knowingfaith you are WOF religion?

[Guest Butero]

 

Right, but he isn't discouraging them from seeking or using the gifts. 

 

 

Sorry, you appear to ignore the role of the Holy Spirit and trying to understand the plain meaning of the text instead of its intrinsic spiritual value. When someone says greater there should be something lower than that. When Paul says greater, he is discouraging to go for lower-end things. That is obvious.

 

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet I shew unto you a more excellent way.  1 Corinthians 12:31

 

Notice how Paul suddenly jumps from gift to the fruit of the Spirit. Here he advises the top best, that is, love! The last one listed in the fruit is self-control. This is a must compared to the end gifts mentioned, that is, speaking in tongue and interpretation.

 

When it comes to the "best gifts," that kind of depends on your situation at the time.  For instance, if someone is deathly ill, the gift they would covet would be the gift of healing.  That would likely be the best gifts to them?  We are not being told to forget all gifts except the greatest gifts.  There is nothing wrong with desiring to be used in all the gifts. 

 

I do not believe that just because love is the first fruit mentioned, that means they are given in order of importance.  For instance, faith is a pretty valuable fruit, given the fact you can't please God without it.  You have a unique way of interpreting scripture.  I don't agree with your conclusions, and I believe the Holy Spirit has revealed things to me.  I would guess that others that don't see things like either of us do would say that they believe the Holy Spirit has revealed things to them? 

[Knowingtruth]

 

 You are belittling in that case the advice of Paul to seek greater gifts.

 

Perhaps. Or perhaps your not understanding what OneLight is trying to communicate?

 

 

You mention "greater gifts." I assume you're referencing this passage. Is this advice or a command? Does this nullify those that are considered "lesser gifts" then?

 

Thanks for recognizing that Paul wrote some as advice and some as commands. Peter clearly says that Paul wrote according to the wisdom given to him. It is God who will decide on the spiritual gifts depending on the context, people and time. How can we be sure that the gift of interpretation followed by speaking that was observed in Corinth in the absence of Paul was meant universally? Why it had ceased for centuries? Where is the need to acqire that forcibly by praying for that many times accompanied by music to stir up emotions?

 

 

 

1 Cor. 12:31 (NASB)

But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

 

Yet let's look at this passage in context... Particlularly I'd like to draw attention to the second part of the chapter Onelight quoted. The eye cannot say to the hand "I have no need of you" or to the feet "I have no need of you." The pinky toe is a very small section of the body. Yet, have you ever thought about how much balance the pinky gives to us when walking? The members of the body which seem to some weaker are necessary. No part of the Body of Christ is more important than the other. And let's remember too that the head of the Church is Christ. God has placed the members, each one, in the Body just as He desired.

 

 

I believe that what was noticed in Corinth were extra growth of a body that had no relevance to the useful organs of a body. That is why Paul switches over to the fruit of the Spirit love from spiritual gifts. I believe we have the further proof that they were unwanted extra growths in not being mentioned elsewhere in Bible and not observed anywhere else.

 

 

 

[OneLight]

Closed for review.