Is "eternity" really "eternal"?

[borntorebel]

I've seen on several different threads here the use of the words "eternal", "eternity", "everlasting", "forever". From what people have said, it seems they are using these terms to mean "never ending time, time without beginning or end". Has anyone else on here discovered that the words translated from Greek and Hebrew don't mean "time without beginning or end, or never ending time"?

Here are the definitions for the following words;

Eternal -

OT

Qedmah - Strong's #6924 - from #6923; the fromt, of place )absol. the fore part, rel. the East), or time (antiquity); often used adv. (before, anciently, eastward).

Olam - Strong's #5769 - from 5956; prop. concealed , i.e. the vanishing point; gen. time out of mind (past or future), freq. adv. (espec. with prep. pref.) always.

NT

Aionios - Strong's #166 - from #165, perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well).

Aion - Strong's #165 - from the same as #104; prop. an age; by extens. perpetuity (also past); by impl. the world; spec. (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future).

Everlasting -

OT

Qedmah - Strong's #5769 - same as above.

Ad - Strong's #5703 - from #5710 - a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by impl.) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity.

Alam - Strong's #5957 - corresp. to 5769; remote time, i.e. the future or past indefinitely.

Qedmah - Strong's #6924 - same as above.

NT

Aion - Strong's #166 - same as above

Evermore -

OT

Kowl - Strong's #3605 - from #3634; prop. the whole; hence all, any or every (in the singular only, but often in the plural sense).

Yowm - Strong's #3117 - (used in conjunction with above word) to be hot; a day; whether lit. (from sunrise to sunset), or fig. (a space of time defined by an associated term).

Qedmah -see above.

Netsach - Strong's #5331 - from #5329 - prop. a goal, i.e. the bright object at a distance traveled towards; hence (fig.) splendor, or (subj.) truthfulness, or (obj.) confidence, but usually (adv.) continually (i.e. to the most distant point of view).

Dor - Strong's #1755 - from #1752; prop. a revolution of time, i.e. an age or generation; also a dwelling.

Tamiyd - Strong's #8548 - to stretch; prop. continuance (as indef. extension), but used only (attributively as adj.) constant (or adv. constantly).

Ad - see above.

NT

Pantote - Strong's #3842 - from #3956 and #3753; every when, i.e. at all times.

Ho, He, To - Strong's #3588 - (used in conjunction with following word) the.

Aion - Strong's #165 - see above.

Forever -

OT

#5769, #5703, #3117, #5331, see above.

NT

#165, #3842, #166, see above.

The majority of the time, especially in the NT, the words "aion" and "aionios" are translated into the various English words that people denote as 'eternity'. Now, the concept of 'eternity' - time never ending, time without end, didn't come into meaning until several centuries after Christ's death. As has been shown above, the meaning of these two words is an age or perpetual ages. Also, if it does mean "eternity" or "eternal", then how does one properly translate the term "aionios tou aionios"? In the KJV, it's translated "forever and ever". How can you translate this "eternities upon eternities"? If an eternity never ends, how can there be "eternities upon eternities"? There can't because that isn't the meaning of these Greek words. Anyone else discovered this truth?

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[Leonard]

Yes, I found all these things a very long time ago. More study showed me more clearly just that while SOME places SOME of those words should have been translated with some reference to a time frame, most clearly do teach an eternity without a reference time in some instances.

[other one]

To answer your question would have to be done at each place, for they are all a bit different.

forever and ever..... to me is the same as eternities upon eternities. A short saying to overstress a point. It is more writing style than getting a literal point across.

The bible does the same with the word Love. There are several greek words that are all translated Love and in some cases don't carry the meaning of the sentence they are in. But, that is the way it is, and I think if it was really important to the message of the bible, God would have done something about it before it was written.

[Guest shiloh357]

How can you translate this "eternities upon eternities"? If an eternity never ends, how can there be "eternities upon eternities"? There can't because that isn't the meaning of these Greek words. Anyone else discovered this truth?

First of all, "Eternities upon Eternities" idiomatic. It is just a figure of speech. It is getting across the point that eternity is without end. It is not meant to be understood as speaking of the end of one eternity and the beginning of another.

Secondly, simpy relying on Strong's cordance is insufficient for a proper study of word meanings. Strong's is an exhaustive concordance, and the Heb. Gk. dictionary is no exception. He gives you a word and then gives you all the possible meanings of that word. The word does not contain ALL of those meanings each time it is used. It will have one meaning depending on the context, and another meaning in a different verse and different context. You need more anylitcal study material than Strongs when doing a word study.

I study Hebrew, and Hebrew words often play double, triple, and quadruple duty. Sometimes one word can have as many as 10 different usages, and only the context of a passage will tell you which one of those meanings apply.

Let's take Olam: Olam can mean the present age, It can mean the age to come (as in "Olam Haba"). It can refer to the physcial world, and it can eternal. When used as "eternal" it means without begginning and without end. That is what Strongs is trying to convey when it offers the following definition: time out of mind (past or future). I will also say that sometimes Olam is used to denote things that will continue until the end of natural time. For example: The Sabbath is an eternal statute. It is a day that is sanctified from other days. However, in the New Heavens and New Earth, we will not have solar days, so the Sabbath will not be possible. Again, the context is what is important, to understand what a word is saying.

God does not exist within linear time. God lives in a demension where there is no begginning and no end. This is why He is called the everlasting God in Isaiah 40:28. The word Olam is used to describe him there. He existed before the universe was created. He will be around after forever afterward.

I am curious as to why you are trying to assert that eternal does not really mean forever?

[2bba]

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

These two verses show me that time is something that God created, but He does not need to live within it. Time is also a temporary thing that he will get rid of, at least in our perception. I believe it too. One day we will be in our new bodies and the old watch will not work anymore, can

[Guest Colossians]

These two verses show me that time is something that God created, but He does not need to live within it. Time is also a temporary thing that he will get rid of, at least in our perception. I believe it too. One day we will be in our new bodies and the old watch will not work anymore, can’t measure time if it does not exist, and you can’t grow old if no time transpires.

This is essentially correct: there is no time in the spirit realm.

God created time inside of Himself.

[apothanein kerdos]

How can you translate this "eternities upon eternities"? If an eternity never ends, how can there be "eternities upon eternities"? There can't because that isn't the meaning of these Greek words. Anyone else discovered this truth?

First of all, "Eternities upon Eternities" idiomatic. It is just a figure of speech. It is getting across the point that eternity is without end. It is not meant to be understood as speaking of the end of one eternity and the beginning of another.

Secondly, simpy relying on Strong's cordance is insufficient for a proper study of word meanings. Strong's is an exhaustive concordance, and the Heb. Gk. dictionary is no exception. He gives you a word and then gives you all the possible meanings of that word. The word does not contain ALL of those meanings each time it is used. It will have one meaning depending on the context, and another meaning in a different verse and different context. You need more anylitcal study material than Strongs when doing a word study.

I study Hebrew, and Hebrew words often play double, triple, and quadruple duty. Sometimes one word can have as many as 10 different usages, and only the context of a passage will tell you which one of those meanings apply.

Let's take Olam: Olam can mean the present age, It can mean the age to come (as in "Olam Haba"). It can refer to the physcial world, and it can eternal. When used as "eternal" it means without begginning and without end. That is what Strongs is trying to convey when it offers the following definition: time out of mind (past or future). I will also say that sometimes Olam is used to denote things that will continue until the end of natural time. For example: The Sabbath is an eternal statute. It is a day that is sanctified from other days. However, in the New Heavens and New Earth, we will not have solar days, so the Sabbath will not be possible. Again, the context is what is important, to understand what a word is saying.

God does not exist within linear time. God lives in a demension where there is no begginning and no end. This is why He is called the everlasting God in Isaiah 40:28. The word Olam is used to describe him there. He existed before the universe was created. He will be around after forever afterward.

I am curious as to why you are trying to assert that eternal does not really mean forever?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I seriously wish I studied Hebrew.

[borntorebel]

Many have stated there are several different meanings for one Greek or Hebrew word. With that I can somewhat agree, as long as those meanings are similar. "Eternity" - time without end, and "Age" - a certain period of time with beginning or end, aren't similar in any way. Greek is a very precise language. There are 3 (or 4, I forget) words for our one English word love. The Greek words I showed mean age, or perpetual ages, a defined period of time with a beginning or end. That can't be changed to mean a time without end. Those are opposite meanings (same goes for 'olam'). "Aionios tou aionios" isn't an idiomatic saying. It means "ages of the ages", or "eons of the eons". It's very similar to "holy of holies";

"The genitive "eons of the eons" has exact parallels in Scripture. Students of Scripture are familiar with the "holy place," and the "holy of holies." In the best manuscript (corrected Sinaiticus), we read of "the holies of holies" in Heb. 9:25. In Israel the tabernacle was holy, the court was holy, and the camp of Israel was holy. The "holies of holies" is not a countless succession of holies. This form of speech doesn't multiple holy places upon holy places. The holies of holies are confined to just two holy places in the tabernacle as related to the court and the camp which were also considered holy.

There is a remarkable correspondence with the eons (or eonian times) and the divisions of the tabernacle. We know of five eons. The first eon is "outside the camp" (before the disruption of the world, Gen. 1:2). The second is "the camp" (from Adam to Noah). The third is "the court" (this present evil eon-the one in which our Lord was crucified, represented by the altar in the court). The fourth is "the holy place" (holy because Christ will rule in the next eon, not Satan). The fifth is the "holy of the holies" (because God Himself will dwell with man in New Heaven and New Earth (Rev. 21:1-3). And, of course, these last two eons are the two eons in which Christ reigns. Hence, they are called the "eons of the eons" (contrasting them with all other eons) in the same way that the tabernacle contained the "holies of holies," (contrasting them with all other holy places)."

L. Smith, website.

When one translates the words correctly, there isn't a single problem with what any verse these words are in says. There is a problem when one attempts to translate it "eternity". Aion is also translated into "world", if it means "eternity", how can it mean world? Once again, a word can't have meanings which are totally diverent of each other. It simply doesn't mean that. I brought this up because it is a serious problem that promotes false teachings which aren't scriptural, like eternal torment.

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[Ovedya]

Isn't the "aionos" v. "aion" argument part of Universalist theology? I seem to recall arguing this before.

[borntorebel]

_man says,

Isn't the "aionos" v. "aion" argument part of Universalist theology?  I seem to recall arguing this before.

Yes , it is part of the Universalist theology. That isn't why it's important though. This word has been mistranslated to support a false teaching. The words can't mean "eternity". It's impossible, especially in the Greek language, as well as by looking at al the ways in which the words are used in scripture.

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron