Split: Your Views... Women Wearing Pants

[Guest Butero]

 

1 Corinthians 6:9 has the word effeminate mentioned as a sin, and in the definition, it includes soft clothing.  It isn't just that they are made to fit a man or a woman, but a dress would give a man a less than masculine appearance, as pants are not feminine, especially jeans.

 

 

 

What is masculine and what is feminine is a matter of opinion. Based a lot on a person's culture.We no longer live in the age where jeans are only for men. Those days have passed. Our modern culture finds it to be acceptable for women to wear jeans and still be a women. And note the Bible verse you quote from says "it is an abomination for a woman to wear what pertains to a man"  it does not say women shall not wear pants. There for since I stated that if a women buys women jeans, she is wearing women's clothing. A man buying man jeans is wearing men's clothing. So I  do not see how this can be a sin. I sometimes wear my husband's shrunk down t-shirts that he can no longer wear. It is cheaper then me having to buy new clothes. I do not believe that I will be sent to hell for wearing my husband's old t-shirt. Didn't men and women back in Bible days sort of dress alike? I mean they all wore robes didn't they? Except some robes were for women and some for men. Its the same with jeans being for men and jeans being for women.

 

 

Yes, the culture does accept women in pants, and they also accept a lot of other things that are wrong.  I don't go by what the culture accepts when I decide what is right and what is wrong.  I do consider it wrong for a woman to wear a t-shirt that belongs to her husband.  I wouldn't wear my wife's clothes.  There had to be a distinction between the clothing men and women wore, or you couldn't have had that scripture in Deuteronomy.  Now, you are correct in saying it doesn't say, "women shall not wear pants," anymore than it says men shall not wear a bra.  At the same time, we have to look at the clothing today and make application.  We do that all the time in relation to various scriptures.  For example, the Bible never speaks of watching pornographic films as a sin, but it does speak against lust.  Since I know pornographic films are used to stir lust, I can come against them on that basis. 

 

[LadyKay]

  I have now agree to disagree. May God guide  each of us on the right path.

[Sevenseas]

 

 

Nope.  Just asks for thoughts...so I guess a little leeway was built into the thread.

 

Well....to go from horror movies to women wearing pants is a lot of leeway if you ask me. LOL

 

 

 

No argument from me on that one!

 

I guess some threads just have more 'stretch' depending on who posts in them

 

Some folks get an awful lot of mileage out of their particular hobby horse even though the legs have been worn down to nubs LOL!  

 

Keep posting.  You WILL see a pattern 

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

 

 

I do want to add one question for Nebula.  You mentioned watching "Big Bang" at your brother's home one day, and not liking it.  I don't care for that show either, but it is probably not much worse than most sitcoms today as far as content goes?  Do you look at your brother as in idolatry for watching shows like that?  Is he worshipping entertainment?  I am just trying to figure out if there is something you are looking for when you determine what constitutes idolatry? 

 

Butero, it is not my intent to point fingers at any particular people; rather, it was a general comment.

 

1. Entertainment is an idol in our society.

 

2. Christians will "tolerate" evil in the name of entertainment (how many murders, acts of sexual immorality, cursing of God, etc., have you entertained yourself with?). We can brush it off as being fake, but I had this challenge come to me myself - are you enjoining in the activity you are watching on screen? Are you particiipatig in evil, just by being a willing observer? Your dollars definitely tell the producers you want more.

 

But how do you know if it's an idol? Well, you can ask the Holy Spirit to search your heart on the matter. A test could be giving the thing up for an extended period of time and see how easy or hard it is (especially when you have to choose not to watch it when you normally would have).

 

First of all, I am not convinced that entertainment is an idol in our society.  I just believe that you can in theory make an idol out of anything, including entertainment.  Yes, Christians will tolerate evil in the name of entertainment, but they will also tolerate evil in other ways.  Christian women will tolerate evil when it comes to how they dress in the name of comfort. 

 

Let me issue a challenge to you Nebula.  We can call it a test.  How easy would it be for you to give up wearing pants for an extended period of time?  That is something I look at as a sin, while you see entertainment as a sin.  Women wearing what pertains to a man is something I consider evil, and in addition to that, I believe that many women have made it an idol.  You believe entertainment is an idol for Christians. 

 

The whole thing comes down to this.  I understand your position on entertainment because I have the same feelings about things I view as sinful and wrong that Christians are doing.  You are going out of you way to claim you aren't pointing fingers, but all the while you are.  When you have a conviction something is wrong, you can't understand how others can't see things like you do?  On the inside, you feel like they are in denial, and they just love that thing so much, they won't give it up because they worship it.  I doubt you are going to accept what I am saying, but from one legalist to another, I totally understand you.  I don't believe you would give up what I believe is your idol, and frankly, I think I would have an easier time giving up watching tv for an extended period of time.  Of course, we will never know? 

 

 

Goodness, Butero, I was answering your question. I'm not challenging you to a dual!!!

 

I explained my perspectives and convictions, and if you disagree with them, fine. If you don't like my answers, then stop asking me questions.

 

And for the record, I don't consider my wearing pants any more evil than my wearing clothes of mixed fabric.

 

 

This is a personal conviction of yours based on one interpretation of one passage of Scripture that is over-used and misused to attempt to hinder women. Why do many threads you are involve dwith have to go back to this topic? Lol

 

Butero, if you consider wearing pants a sin please don't wear pants.

 

I agree with you Nebula. I don't consider wearing pants any more evil than wearing clothes of a mixed fabric.

 

God bless,

GE

[TsukinoRei]

 

 

 

 

 

I do want to add one question for Nebula.  You mentioned watching "Big Bang" at your brother's home one day, and not liking it.  I don't care for that show either, but it is probably not much worse than most sitcoms today as far as content goes?  Do you look at your brother as in idolatry for watching shows like that?  Is he worshipping entertainment?  I am just trying to figure out if there is something you are looking for when you determine what constitutes idolatry? 

 

Butero, it is not my intent to point fingers at any particular people; rather, it was a general comment.

 

1. Entertainment is an idol in our society.

 

2. Christians will "tolerate" evil in the name of entertainment (how many murders, acts of sexual immorality, cursing of God, etc., have you entertained yourself with?). We can brush it off as being fake, but I had this challenge come to me myself - are you enjoining in the activity you are watching on screen? Are you particiipatig in evil, just by being a willing observer? Your dollars definitely tell the producers you want more.

 

But how do you know if it's an idol? Well, you can ask the Holy Spirit to search your heart on the matter. A test could be giving the thing up for an extended period of time and see how easy or hard it is (especially when you have to choose not to watch it when you normally would have).

 

First of all, I am not convinced that entertainment is an idol in our society.  I just believe that you can in theory make an idol out of anything, including entertainment.  Yes, Christians will tolerate evil in the name of entertainment, but they will also tolerate evil in other ways.  Christian women will tolerate evil when it comes to how they dress in the name of comfort. 

 

Let me issue a challenge to you Nebula.  We can call it a test.  How easy would it be for you to give up wearing pants for an extended period of time?  That is something I look at as a sin, while you see entertainment as a sin.  Women wearing what pertains to a man is something I consider evil, and in addition to that, I believe that many women have made it an idol.  You believe entertainment is an idol for Christians. 

 

The whole thing comes down to this.  I understand your position on entertainment because I have the same feelings about things I view as sinful and wrong that Christians are doing.  You are going out of you way to claim you aren't pointing fingers, but all the while you are.  When you have a conviction something is wrong, you can't understand how others can't see things like you do?  On the inside, you feel like they are in denial, and they just love that thing so much, they won't give it up because they worship it.  I doubt you are going to accept what I am saying, but from one legalist to another, I totally understand you.  I don't believe you would give up what I believe is your idol, and frankly, I think I would have an easier time giving up watching tv for an extended period of time.  Of course, we will never know? 

 

 

Goodness, Butero, I was answering your question. I'm not challenging you to a dual!!!

 

I explained my perspectives and convictions, and if you disagree with them, fine. If you don't like my answers, then stop asking me questions.

 

And for the record, I don't consider my wearing pants any more evil than my wearing clothes of mixed fabric.

 

 

This is a personal conviction of yours based on one interpretation of one passage of Scripture that is over-used and misused to attempt to hinder women. Why do many threads you are involve dwith have to go back to this topic? Lol

 

Butero, if you consider wearing pants a sin please don't wear pants.

 

I agree with you Nebula. I don't consider wearing pants any more evil than wearing clothes of a mixed fabric.

 

God bless,

GE

 

Great, now the next time I go to a church I'm going to be struck by the mental image of the congregation in their underwear.    I can already feel my eyes stinging in protest.

[GoldenEagle]

 

Thank you for the last comment.  I can disagree with people and still like them personally.  I do think its a sin for women to wear pants.  Deuteronomy 22:5 says it is an abomination for a woman to wear what pertains to a man.  Are there worse sins?  I would think so?  Murder is worse to me, as is adultery and several others sins, but just because there are worse sins, that doesn't make it right. 

 

The problem with Sunday is it isn't the Sabbath and never was.  Biblically, the seventh day was the Sabbath, and the NT Sabbath is the rest we enter into when we turn our lives over to Christ. 

 

 

Yes this in bold is a private conviction. It also something many others have as a private conviction and attempt to impose unnecessary restrictions on half (women) the Body of Christ.

 

"We must not seek to bind the consciences of other believers with the private convictions that arise out of our personal walk with God. Even if you believe God has led you in developing those convictions, you still must not elevate them to the level of spiritual principles for everyone else to follow." - Jerry Bridges

This passage in CONTEXT...

 

Deut 22:1-12

You shall not see your brother’s ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother. ² And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him. ³ You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother’s, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.

⁴ “You shall not see your brother’s donkey or his ox fall down along the road, and hide yourself from them; you shall surely help him lift them up again.

⁵ “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

⁶ “If a bird’s nest happens to be before you along the way, in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs, with the mother sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young; ⁷ you shall surely let the mother go, and take the young for yourself, that it may be well with you and that you may prolong your days.

⁸ “When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring guilt of bloodshed on your household if anyone falls from it.

⁹ “You shall not sow your vineyard with different kinds of seed, lest the yield of the seed which you have sown and the fruit of your vineyard be defiled.

¹⁰ “You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together.

¹¹ “You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together.

¹² “You shall make tassels on the four corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself.

 

1. Just initial look at the Hebrew words I find it interesting that the phrase "that which pertaineth to a man" appears to refer to an implement or tool of some kind whereas the word "garment" refers to an article of clothing. Why was the same word not used in both cases? Hmmm....

 

2. That command was given in order to prevent the Hebrews from incorporating pagan worship practices into their culture, which often involved men and women dressing up as a god and/or goddess.

See: http://www.actseighteen.com/articles/women-pants.htm

God bless,

GE

 

[GoldenEagle]

 

Anyway, I know you don't consider your wearing pants sinful, as I don't consider watching horror movies idolatry.  That is my point, but when you are convinced something is sinful, you look at those doing it as in denial, and in some cases, as worshipping idols.  If you were to come to my house wearing jeans, I might be in my movie room watching "The Skeleton Key."  You would look at me and ask yourself, how can he watch a horror movie?  He has to know it is wrong?  I would look at you and ask, "How can any Christian woman wear pants?  She has to know it is wrong?" 

....

There is a lot more I could say on this subject, but it is getting off topic.  The question here is whether or not horror movies are wrong to watch?  As I see it, there is one lone scripture, Phil 4:8 that applies, and it doesn't say it is a sin (transgression of God's laws) if you ever look at anything that isn't good, lovely, just, of a good report, etc.  If it were a sin, there are portions of scripture we shouldn't read, because they speak of things like the judgment. 

Right... We shouldn't base our whole theology on a subject on one passage of Scripture such as Phl 4:8.

Ehm... Deut 22:5... Ironic? Lol

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

 

 

I do want to add one question for Nebula.  You mentioned watching "Big Bang" at your brother's home one day, and not liking it.  I don't care for that show either, but it is probably not much worse than most sitcoms today as far as content goes?  Do you look at your brother as in idolatry for watching shows like that?  Is he worshipping entertainment?  I am just trying to figure out if there is something you are looking for when you determine what constitutes idolatry? 

 

Butero, it is not my intent to point fingers at any particular people; rather, it was a general comment.

 

1. Entertainment is an idol in our society.

 

2. Christians will "tolerate" evil in the name of entertainment (how many murders, acts of sexual immorality, cursing of God, etc., have you entertained yourself with?). We can brush it off as being fake, but I had this challenge come to me myself - are you enjoining in the activity you are watching on screen? Are you particiipatig in evil, just by being a willing observer? Your dollars definitely tell the producers you want more.

 

But how do you know if it's an idol? Well, you can ask the Holy Spirit to search your heart on the matter. A test could be giving the thing up for an extended period of time and see how easy or hard it is (especially when you have to choose not to watch it when you normally would have).

 

First of all, I am not convinced that entertainment is an idol in our society.  I just believe that you can in theory make an idol out of anything, including entertainment.  Yes, Christians will tolerate evil in the name of entertainment, but they will also tolerate evil in other ways.  Christian women will tolerate evil when it comes to how they dress in the name of comfort. 

 

Let me issue a challenge to you Nebula.  We can call it a test.  How easy would it be for you to give up wearing pants for an extended period of time?  That is something I look at as a sin, while you see entertainment as a sin.  Women wearing what pertains to a man is something I consider evil, and in addition to that, I believe that many women have made it an idol.  You believe entertainment is an idol for Christians. 

 

The whole thing comes down to this.  I understand your position on entertainment because I have the same feelings about things I view as sinful and wrong that Christians are doing.  You are going out of you way to claim you aren't pointing fingers, but all the while you are.  When you have a conviction something is wrong, you can't understand how others can't see things like you do?  On the inside, you feel like they are in denial, and they just love that thing so much, they won't give it up because they worship it.  I doubt you are going to accept what I am saying, but from one legalist to another, I totally understand you.  I don't believe you would give up what I believe is your idol, and frankly, I think I would have an easier time giving up watching tv for an extended period of time.  Of course, we will never know? 

 

 

Goodness, Butero, I was answering your question. I'm not challenging you to a dual!!!

 

I explained my perspectives and convictions, and if you disagree with them, fine. If you don't like my answers, then stop asking me questions.

 

And for the record, I don't consider my wearing pants any more evil than my wearing clothes of mixed fabric.

 

 

This is a personal conviction of yours based on one interpretation of one passage of Scripture that is over-used and misused to attempt to hinder women. Why do many threads you are involve dwith have to go back to this topic? Lol

 

Butero, if you consider wearing pants a sin please don't wear pants.

 

I agree with you Nebula. I don't consider wearing pants any more evil than wearing clothes of a mixed fabric.

 

God bless,

GE

 

I consider it a sin to wear clothing that pertains to the opposite sex, which means, I am prohibited from wearing a dress.  A dress is not unclean, for a woman and pants are not unclean for a man.  That's pretty simple.  BTW, you might want to write Concerned Women For America and get on to them for attacking a boy in a skirt, and trying to raise money doing so? 

 

A lot of people try to use the mixed fabric argument, but it is not valid.  There are some laws that were in place for Israel as a sign of separation, and that was the case with the one about mixed fabrics In a garment.  The law in Deuteronomy 22:5 is a moral law, and it still remains.  I would be more likely to consider that we should stop wearing garments of mixed fabrics, than to consider that it is right for women to wear pants. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Thank you for the last comment.  I can disagree with people and still like them personally.  I do think its a sin for women to wear pants.  Deuteronomy 22:5 says it is an abomination for a woman to wear what pertains to a man.  Are there worse sins?  I would think so?  Murder is worse to me, as is adultery and several others sins, but just because there are worse sins, that doesn't make it right. 

 

The problem with Sunday is it isn't the Sabbath and never was.  Biblically, the seventh day was the Sabbath, and the NT Sabbath is the rest we enter into when we turn our lives over to Christ. 

 

 

Yes this in bold is a private conviction. It also something many others have as a private conviction and attempt to impose unnecessary restrictions on half (women) the Body of Christ.

 

"We must not seek to bind the consciences of other believers with the private convictions that arise out of our personal walk with God. Even if you believe God has led you in developing those convictions, you still must not elevate them to the level of spiritual principles for everyone else to follow." - Jerry Bridges

This passage in CONTEXT...

 

Deut 22:1-12

You shall not see your brother’s ox or his sheep going astray, and hide yourself from them; you shall certainly bring them back to your brother. ² And if your brother is not near you, or if you do not know him, then you shall bring it to your own house, and it shall remain with you until your brother seeks it; then you shall restore it to him. ³ You shall do the same with his donkey, and so shall you do with his garment; with any lost thing of your brother’s, which he has lost and you have found, you shall do likewise; you must not hide yourself.

⁴ “You shall not see your brother’s donkey or his ox fall down along the road, and hide yourself from them; you shall surely help him lift them up again.

⁵ “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

⁶ “If a bird’s nest happens to be before you along the way, in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs, with the mother sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young; ⁷ you shall surely let the mother go, and take the young for yourself, that it may be well with you and that you may prolong your days.

⁸ “When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring guilt of bloodshed on your household if anyone falls from it.

⁹ “You shall not sow your vineyard with different kinds of seed, lest the yield of the seed which you have sown and the fruit of your vineyard be defiled.

¹⁰ “You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together.

¹¹ “You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together.

¹² “You shall make tassels on the four corners of the clothing with which you cover yourself.

 

1. Just initial look at the Hebrew words I find it interesting that the phrase "that which pertaineth to a man" appears to refer to an implement or tool of some kind whereas the word "garment" refers to an article of clothing. Why was the same word not used in both cases? Hmmm....

 

2. That command was given in order to prevent the Hebrews from incorporating pagan worship practices into their culture, which often involved men and women dressing up as a god and/or goddess.

See: http://www.actseighteen.com/articles/women-pants.htm

God bless,

GE

 

 

I didn't agree with the quote by Jerry Bridges the first time you posted it, and still don't.  Freely you have been given truth and freely you should share truth.  I also reject your interpretation of Deuteronomy 22:5, and the reason for it.  There is no basis for such an interpretation, except some so-called historian likely made it up, like they make other things up to explain away the plain meaning of passages they don't like.  If you do believe what Jerry Bridges said, why did you attempt to push your personal convictions against horror movies on everyone with 10 points we were supposed to use to validate your belief? 

 

My point to Nebula was in regard to how one determines if they are in idolatry?  If it is by attempting to stop doing something, and if it is hard, then it is an idol, my point is valid.  Every woman that has trouble wearing a dress for an extended period of time has made pants an idol.  That was her test, not mine.  It could apply to nearly anything, not just entertainment.  It could apply to sports fans.  If they can't stop watching football for an extended period of time, according to that test, football is an idol to them. 

 

Now GE, I want to ask you some questions.  Is Concerned Women For America trying to impose their own standard of morality on everyone else by attacking a little boy wearing a skirt?  If a church won't accept a man wearing a dress as a song leader, is that an attempt to impose their personal convictions on others?  If a woman doesn't feel comfortable going out with a man that is wearing a dress, isn't it hypocritical if she expects him to feel good that she is wearing jeans?  Our pagan society is tolerant of a lot of evil things, so we can't go by what they find acceptable.  Can a woman be guilty of wearing clothes that pertain to a man in any circumstance, as women clearly think a man can wear clothes that pertain to a woman?  It is my contention that women feel like they can choose to look however they wish, dress however they want, and be anything they desire, while men must look like a man in their appearance, dress in a way that is masculine, and basically be men.  There is a clear double standard, and I haven't heard one man or woman give a valid reason why this is so?  Not from you and not from anyone else. 

[GoldenEagle]

I consider it a sin to wear clothing that pertains to the opposite sex, which means, I am prohibited from wearing a dress.  A dress is not unclean, for a woman and pants are not unclean for a man.  That's pretty simple.  BTW, you might want to write Concerned Women For America and get on to them for attacking a boy in a skirt, and trying to raise money doing so? 

 

 

A lot of people try to use the mixed fabric argument, but it is not valid.  There are some laws that were in place for Israel as a sign of separation, and that was the case with the one about mixed fabrics In a garment.  The law in Deuteronomy 22:5 is a moral law, and it still remains.  I would be more likely to consider that we should stop wearing garments of mixed fabrics, than to consider that it is right for women to wear pants. 

 

 

So if you consider it a sin to wear a dress don't wear a dress.

What do you think of robes or bathrobes? Would you wear a bathrobe in a spa as a guy?

The issue is your view of Deut 22:5 is different for one gender (women - pants) while it is different for the other gender (men - kilts).

But I digress.