Evangelical Universalism - True or False Doctrine?

[Guest ninhao]

 

Elhanan, said:

If the book of Romans ended at Chapter 9, you might have a point but Paul goes on to state in chapt 11 that the mystery is that all of Israel including the disobedient will eventually be saved once the fullness of the gentiles is brought in.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, ²⁶ and in this way^[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;

    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

²⁷ And this is^[f] my covenant with them

    when I take away their sins.”^[g]

²⁸ As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, ²⁹ for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. ³⁰ Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, ³¹ so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now^[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. ³² For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

 

This is becoming concerning. Romans 9 and Romans 11 are in complete agreement that only the faithful among Israel will be saved. 

 

Rom 11:22-23  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.  (23)  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 

God has mercy on everyone but only the faithful ( believers ) will be saved ( graffed in again ). We can see the portion of Israel who will repent and believe prophesied by Zechariah. ( possibly during the tribulation )

 

Zec 13:8-9  And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  (9)  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

 

 

 

 

Can you explain why you feel compelled to translate aionion as "eternal"?

 

 

 

Mat 7:13  "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

 

Mat 25:46  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

Gal 6:7-8  Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.  (8)  Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

In Matthew 25:46 Jesus used eternal (aiōnios ) to describe the fate of both the wicked and the righteous.  You agree that the righteous will inherit eternal life but baulk at the same word used to describe the destruction/punishment for the wicked.

I do consider it is possible eternal punishment may imply separation from God eternally ie. destruction. ( this still is never ending )

 

Destruction is permanent.

 

 (PS. Elhanan it would be good if you will take Onelight’s offer to pm him for help with the coding. You may also copy/paste into a Word document and edit accordingly if you prefer )

[kwikphilly]

Blessings to all,

    I am hoping that the fellow(perhaps some of you are good on the computer-I am very slow)-can't think of his name but he keeps writing letters to Pastor Hagee all over the internet taking apart every single word the man uses in a sermon(I am not a fan either way)...but his big thing is the Greek word "aionion" and it is translated as age,period of time or eon and he insists that NO ONE will be eternally tormented and hell is not  eternal.....I hope, brother Elhanan you are not being persuaded by reading his articles......

    If punishment for those in denial of Jesus was only for a time ,why would we need a Savior?....we would take our licks and be off to heaven..... With love,in Christ-Kwik

[B3L13v3R]

"Evangelical Universalism - true of false doctrine? "

FALSE.

For a multitude of Scriptures already given in context by more than a few in this now 4 page thread that I have read through.

This whole Evangelical Universalist false theory reminds me of the ever so popular book "The Shack" done by "christian" Universalist William Paul Young.
William Paul Young also does not believe in the substitutionary Atonement of Christ...

Folks, be careful, Universalism of any type is heresy, so called "christian Universalism" or otherwise.

Universalism twists and tortures God's Word in an attempt to make it say things that were never intended in context.

(2Pe 3:16-18)
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary (in part)

Unstable
UNSTA'BLE, a. [l. instabilis.]

1. Not stable; not fixed.

2. Not steady; inconstant; irresolute; wavering. James 1.

Wrest
WREST, v.t. [G., to wrest, to snatch or pull, to burst, to tear.]

 To distort; to turn from truth or twist from its natural meaning by violence; to pervert.

Wrest once the law to your authority.

Thou shalt not wrest the judgment of the poor. Exo 23.

Which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Pet 3.

WREST, n.

1. Distortion; violent pulling and twisting; perversion.

2. Active or moving power.

3. An instrument to tune.

[Elhanan]

Blessings to all,

    I am hoping that the fellow(perhaps some of you are good on the computer-I am very slow)-can't think of his name but he keeps writing letters to Pastor Hagee all over the internet taking apart every single word the man uses in a sermon(I am not a fan either way)...but his big thing is the Greek word "aionion" and it is translated as age,period of time or eon and he insists that NO ONE will be eternally tormented and hell is not  eternal.....I hope, brother Elhanan you are not being persuaded by reading his articles......

    If punishment for those in denial of Jesus was only for a time ,why would we need a Savior?....we would take our licks and be off to heaven..... With love,in Christ-Kwik

I don't know who you are referring to as I don't watch preachers on TV or the internet. As for "universalism," I find that the great majority of Christians dismiss it out-of-hand because it is at odds with what they have always been taught and don't bother to study the subject further in order to determine for themselves the veracity of what they have been taught. The idea that God will eventually reconcile all to himself was not a remote or foreign idea in the early church as it is today.

Quoting from Schaff-Herzog's Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1908,vol.12,p.96)

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibus were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked."

As for your taking your licks comment, I don't know about you, but I would not want to take even a single lick in the lake of fire if I could avoid it as I would much rather choose Christ in this life.

[Elhanan]

 

Elhanan, said:

If the book of Romans ended at Chapter 9, you might have a point but Paul goes on to state in chapt 11 that the mystery is that all of Israel including the disobedient will eventually be saved once the fullness of the gentiles is brought in.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, ²⁶ and in this way^[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;

    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

²⁷ And this is^[f] my covenant with them

    when I take away their sins.”^[g]

²⁸ As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, ²⁹ for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. ³⁰ Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, ³¹ so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now^[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. ³² For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

This is becoming concerning. Romans 9 and Romans 11 are in complete agreement that only the faithful among Israel will be saved. 

 

Rom 11:22-23  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.  (23)  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 

God has mercy on everyone but only the faithful ( believers ) will be saved ( graffed in again ). We can see the portion of Israel who will repent and believe prophesied by Zechariah. ( possibly during the tribulation )

 

Zec 13:8-9  And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  (9)  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Elhanan said:

In Romans 9-11 Paul draws a sharp distinction between the believing Jews who are saved (the elect) and the unbelieving Jews who are not saved. These unbelieving Jews are disobedient and moreover God himself has hardened their hearts (Rom 11:8-10) in order that the gentiles would be saved. Once the fullness of the gentiles comes in (Rom 11:25) the period of harding will end and then "all Israel will be saved" (11:26). That is why Paul refers to this as a "mystery" - that God is able to save all of Israel. God is faithul to his covenant people as his gifts and calling to Israel are irrevocable (11:29).

 

Can you explain why you feel compelled to translate aionion as "eternal"?

 

 

Mat 7:13  "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

 

Mat 25:46  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

Gal 6:7-8  Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.  (8)  Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

In Matthew 25:46 Jesus used eternal (aiōnios ) to describe the fate of both the wicked and the righteous.  You agree that the righteous will inherit eternal life but baulk at the same word used to describe the destruction/punishment for the wicked.

I do consider it is possible eternal punishment may imply separation from God eternally ie. destruction. ( this still is never ending )

 

Destruction is permanent.

 

Elhanan said:

Again, please explain to me why you must translate aionion as eternal?

 

 (PS. Elhanan it would be good if you will take Onelight’s offer to pm him for help with the coding. You may also copy/paste into a Word document and edit accordingly if you prefer )

Thank you for the reminder - I apologize for having screwed this one up.

[kwikphilly]

Hi Elhanan,

   Well,God bless you and it was you I was referring to.....I am very happy to know  that you "choose Christ" and I do apologize but I don't know what I was reading that gave me the impression that it was you that wrote whatever it was that lead me to assume you were not saved....really ,my only excuse is I was awfully tired last evening and must have read someone else's post and thought it was yours...I suppose that has happened before(lol)

     And no,when I said take our licks I was referring to the human race as the universalism teaches everyone will be temporarily punished....I was definately not speaking for myself or any other follower of Christ Jesus,my Lord and Savior

    I'll tell ya......I don't want to re-read all these posts so I just don't know who it was that sounded exactly like that fellow(is his last name"Slick"perhaps?)Oh yeah,and the guy is noy a TV preacher,he is a writer of some sort

                                                                                                           Anyway...With love-Kwik

[Elhanan]

"Evangelical Universalism - true of false doctrine? "

FALSE.

For a multitude of Scriptures already given in context by more than a few in this now 4 page thread that I have read through.

This whole Evangelical Universalist false theory reminds me of the ever so popular book "The Shack" done by "christian" Universalist William Paul Young.

William Paul Young also does not believe in the substitutionary Atonement of Christ...

Folks, be careful, Universalism of any type is heresy, so called "christian Universalism" or otherwise.

Universalism twists and tortures God's Word in an attempt to make it say things that were never intended in context.

(2Pe 3:16-18)

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary (in part)

Unstable

UNSTA'BLE, a. [l. instabilis.]

1. Not stable; not fixed.

2. Not steady; inconstant; irresolute; wavering. James 1.

Wrest

WREST, v.t. [G., to wrest, to snatch or pull, to burst, to tear.]

 To distort; to turn from truth or twist from its natural meaning by violence; to pervert.

Wrest once the law to your authority.

Thou shalt not wrest the judgment of the poor. Exo 23.

Which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Pet 3.

WREST, n.

1. Distortion; violent pulling and twisting; perversion.

2. Active or moving power.

3. An instrument to tune.

If you think I have wrested the truth from Scripture go ahead and make your case through Scripture instead of painting with broad strokes of generalizations and guilt by association.

[Elhanan]

Hi Elhanan,

   Well,God bless you and it was you I was referring to.....I am very happy to know  that you "choose Christ" and I do apologize but I don't know what I was reading that gave me the impression that it was you that wrote whatever it was that lead me to assume you were not saved....really ,my only excuse is I was awfully tired last evening and must have read someone else's post and thought it was yours...I suppose that has happened before(lol)

     And no,when I said take our licks I was referring to the human race as the universalism teaches everyone will be temporarily punished....I was definately not speaking for myself or any other follower of Christ Jesus,my Lord and Savior

    I'll tell ya......I don't want to re-read all these posts so I just don't know who it was that sounded exactly like that fellow(is his last name"Slick"perhaps?)Oh yeah,and the guy is noy a TV preacher,he is a writer of some sort

                                                                                                           Anyway...With love-Kwik

No apolology from you needed Kwik as I find your posts to filled with grace and not attempting to offend anyone.

[kwikphilly]

Aww,thanks my brother ,you are very kind but I really feel awful that I mistakenly thought it was you(I should have made sure)I just remembered,for who ever my have tried to understand my crazy post! L.Ray Smith who does all those critiques on what he calls contradictions because what he believes is the mis-translation of the Greek....mainly aionion....universalism is his thing

      I don't understand why they fail to see so many other Scriptures that refer to eternal punishment and the Lake of fire that don't use aionion....I guess that is what false doctrine is all about,right?For example Mark9:43(speaking of the fire that never goes out ...seems pretty clear to me

                                                                                                                      With love,in Christ-Kwik

[Guest ninhao]

 

Elhanan said:

In Romans 9-11 Paul draws a sharp distinction between the believing Jews who are saved (the elect) and the unbelieving Jews who are not saved. These unbelieving Jews are disobedient and moreover God himself has hardened their hearts (Rom 11:8-10) in order that the gentiles would be saved. Once the fullness of the gentiles comes in (Rom 11:25) the period of harding will end and then "all Israel will be saved" (11:26). That is why Paul refers to this as a "mystery" - that God is able to save all of Israel. God is faithul to his covenant people as his gifts and calling to Israel are irrevocable (11:29).

 

 

The elect Jews are all believing Jews.  After the fullness of the Gentiles, many more Jews will believe adding to the fold. We already know "all Israel"does not mean every Jew  from Romans  9:6-8. The “mystery”  is the establishment of the Church uniting Jew and Gentile as one Body in Christ.  

 

Eph 3:4-6  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)  (5)  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;  (6)  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

This mystery has no bearing on “all Israel”  and the promise to Israel to not forsake them corporately is  effectual. 

 

 

 

 

Again, please explain to me why you must translate aionion as eternal?

 

 

I believe I did explain let me re post.

 

Mat 7:13  "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

 

Mat 25:46  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

Gal 6:7-8  Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.  (8)  Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

In Matthew 25:46 Jesus used eternal (aiōnios ) to describe the fate of both the wicked and the righteous.  You agree that the righteous will inherit eternal life but baulk at the same word used to describe the destruction/punishment for the wicked.

 

I’ll ask you 2 questions so we have understanding.

1. Do you accept aionios in Matthew 25:46 when referring to the righteous means eternal ?
2. If so; why don’t you accept aionios, in the same sentence, when referring to the wicked means eternal ?