Where did satan come from

[thomas t]

 

 

If Satan did not come from God's act of creating, this thought logically leads to a) Satan is some kind of creator himself, self-existent B) there is another source beside God the Father and the Word and The Holy Spirit.

 

But how could that be? Following this logic would totally dismantle God's sovereign position as the Almighty. Are different existing entities or manifestations of (personal) awareness popping out ex nihilo, out of nothing? How does that relate to God as the first cause and the ultimate source of the whole existence.

 

This logic does not lead to any cohesive conclusion, since there apparently is a tension between Satan and God which is reality in this world. If Satan originates from another source of existence, is it somewhere behinds God's back, so to say? I still cannot follow that logic. Jesus said every hair in your head is counted so probably God is pretty well aware of what is going on, since He is above space and time.

 

 

Good morning Diatheosis,

 

what you're presenting here is an argumentation entirely based on what you think, no scripture involved with the exception of mentioning God as the Almighty. And you're right in that God is the Almighty. Logic is a good thing btw., we need it do evaluate signs on earth, but do you really think that what goes on in heaven can be exposed just by the use of some smart (or perhaps not so smart) equations? 

Thomas

Edited October 2, 2013 by thomas t

[rjp34652]

Good morning Sheba and other fellow-posters,

 

I think that this topic is worth being brought up again.

 

My opinion is, as was in the other thread, that it can't be shown in scripture that Satan is a creation from God.

 

The above mentioned passage of Ezekiel speaks of Tyre and calls this town a cherub, whereas Satan isn't explicitely mentioned. There is no scripture saying that Satan is a cherub, at least I don't find any.

 

Some argue that they see similarities between the Ezekiel passage and Luke 10:18

He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. [...]"

 

Tyre fell, so did Satan. But it isn't said that there can be only one entity that is able to fall. Even if some think of a strong allusion concerning the Ezekiel passage, the impression of an allusion doesn't prove anything.

 

 

I am not saying that I can show where Satan came from, btw..

 

Have a good day

Thomas

 

"It can't be shown in scripture that satan is a creation from God."

 

This is a statement of utter nonsense.  When then did it come from?  

 

All things have their beginnings in something else.  No man or woman is born of himself or herself.  Likewise all things have their origin elsewhere.

 

Similarly, even the holy angels and the fallen angels have their point of creation ultimately in God.    

 

Only God has no point of origin.  Only the Most High is sufficient unto Himself.

 

Therefore satan's origin can be traced to God.

 

The Bible states that it fell from grace due to pride and that it took many angels with it.

 

And when it fell, it fell to earth where it has been constantly walking about looking for trouble.   Only the grace of God holds it at bay.

But God will not protect the sinner from the ravages of the power of sin.  

 

Do you not know, Oh Man, that when you rebel against God's Holy ordinance the power of sin lies at the door ready to devour you.  It prowls about looking for wayward souls to consume.

 

Therefore it becomes our total duty to follow Our Lord's wishes as closely as possible, hoping for grace to save us from temptation and the power of sin, praying for deliverance from the day and in the day we may fall into the opposer's trap.

 

The power of sin is real.   The only deliverance is in the power of the blood of the lamb that was crucified for our transgressions - Jesus.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[thomas t]

 

 

When then did it come from?  

 

Good day,

you are shifting the onus to prove something on me, I think, while you've made a positive statement, I did not. 

However, you only presented some flakes of thought, in my opinion, and not scripture to prove your point.

Let me ask you the same question I asked before: 

Logic is a good thing, we need it do evaluate signs on earth, but do you really think that what goes on in heaven can be exposed just by the use of some smart (or perhaps not so smart) equations? 

 

Thomas

[rjp34652]

 

 

 

When then did it come from?  

 

Good day,

you are shifting the onus to prove something on me, I think, while you've made a positive statement, I did not. 

However, you only presented some flakes of thought, in my opinion, and not scripture to prove your point.

Let me ask you the same question I asked before: 

Logic is a good thing, we need it do evaluate signs on earth, but do you really think that what goes on in heaven can be exposed just by the use of some smart (or perhaps not so smart) equations? 

 

Thomas

 

 

Flakes of thought, you say?  There's a rather large flake here to be sure.  

 

But none of it involves anything I've brought to the table.

 

Prove something on you personally?  I think not, for you are utterly convinced of the inerrancy of your own subjective opinion.  Your argument claims the status of a mini-papal encyclical and in that do you err.

 

Your argument isn't a request for logic nor even a bow to it from others.   Many prefer honesty to the sham of pretended argumentative superiority.  Your only position is negative - disprove and condemn those statements made by others with nothing more to back up your statements than mockery.   Judge not that ye be not judged.  It's time to eat of the dish you've prepared for others.  

 

"A fool hath no delight in understanding, But only that his heart may reveal itself."

Pro 18:2

* * *

How is it that in all things men do, logic is an imperative?  The sharpest tool we have for discerning our world and that which we have yet to understand is the processes of our own deduction.  We use logic to formulate language, mathematics, science and that which lies beyond the reach of our eyes, ears, and hands.   By the use of it we have ascended to the stars and by the abandonment of it we have murdered millions of our own kind.  Illumination is said to be found in the search, not of our own thoughts, but of the world revealed to us.   We make use of the data we discover by the use of logic.   That includes, but is not restricted to the spiritual realm.  In fact, it was logic that was first used to deduce the nature of the atom, mathematical theorems and architectural wonders that have formed the foundation of our civilization.   None of those things can be seen with the eye, heard with the ear or held in the hand.  Abandon logic and you fall like lightning into the sewage that lies at the bottom of your imagination.

 

"Science investigates; religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power; religion gives man wisdom which is control. Science deals mainly with facts; religion deals mainly with values.   The two are not rivals. They are complementary.  Science keeps religion from sinking into the valley of crippling irrationalism and paralyzing obscurantism."

- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

With regard to the matters discussed in this thread about fallen spiritual entities, the Bible is very clear.   In fact, Holy Writ is very clear on all of creation as well as the redemption of that which was lost in the beginning.

 

"Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own conceit."

Pro 26:5  

 

There is a God in heaven who has revealed Himself to the sons of men.  There is a way that seems right to men, but which leads to destruction.   Modern society calls it subjective opinion.  The Bible calls it foolishness.   I call it rubbish.   It leads to everlasting damnation and it is tempted by the greatest spiritual predator in heaven or on earth. 

 

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding."

- Prov. 3:5

 

Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;

- Act 3:19  

 

If you deny logic in others, then you have given license for others to deny the logic which you yourself hold most dear.  No man is an island unto himself.

We all depend upon that which God graciously gives to us for understanding, faith and redemption from our own 'subjective' traps of opinion.

 

Leave your flakes in your breakfast bowl and come to the Lord, for He is willing to reason with us all.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[thomas t]

Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling,

 

That was from the ToS,

you, however, wrote:

 It's time to eat of the dish you've prepared for others.  

 

"A fool hath no delight in understanding, But only that his heart may reveal itself."

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

I didn't resort to name calling, you did.

 

Stop this finally!

Thomas

[Addai]

In another thread, since closed due to other circumstances, the issue of satan's origins came up, with some members a bit uncertain about this topic. I thought it worth discussiing. 

 

Where did satan come from? 

I take it judging by the reactions of the others on the board, you may be alluding to the possibility of doctrinal/theological development in Judaism coming from Zoroastrianism?

 

If so I don't really have a problem with that.....   I know the concept is very threatening to some but not to me.

[OneLight]

I just say this: it cannot be proven using scripture that God has been allknowing at any point in time. (If people want to provi it now, I hope they keep short..)

 

added numbers to your post

Job 37:16

Do you know how the clouds are balanced,

Those wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge?

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;

His understanding is infinite.

1 Samuel 2:3

Talk no more so very proudly;

Let no arrogance come from your mouth,

For the Lord is the God of knowledge;

And by Him actions are weighed.

Isaiah 55:9

For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So are My ways higher than your ways,

And My thoughts than your thoughts.

1 John 3:19-20

And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

Perhaps you missed these in your reading and research?

[thomas t]

 

I just say this: it cannot be proven using scripture that God has been allknowing at any point in time. (If people want to provi it now, I hope they keep short..)

 

added numbers to your post

Job 37:16

Do you know how the clouds are balanced,

Those wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge?

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;

His understanding is infinite.

1 Samuel 2:3

Talk no more so very proudly;

Let no arrogance come from your mouth,

For the Lord is the God of knowledge;

And by Him actions are weighed.

Isaiah 55:9

For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So are My ways higher than your ways,

And My thoughts than your thoughts.

1 John 3:19-20

And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

Perhaps you missed these in your reading and research?

 

Good day OneLight,

thanks for sharing your opinion. It's interesting.

I'm not going to comment on that or answer your question, however. I was being insulted once in this thread so it has come to a close for me and I want to opt out of it.

Have a good day,

Thomas

[Diatheosis]

Time about some scriptures to make the case, thanks for that One Light.

 

Brother Thomas, I can understand if you feel being insulted and hopefully the tensions in conversations can be maintained respectful. However, don't forget one of the main pillars of our faith, that being forgiveness of which the Lord set out the most wonderful example Himself. Do not let any sort of accusations find place in your heart, yet discern and reflect upon what is true.

 

With respect, I might add, now that you finally were offered the scriptures speaking of God's infinite wisdom and knowing, don't you think it is a bit more than an opinion? I mean, sure, God has an opinion of things but it certainly cannot be compared to what we think.

 

Often I pray God to give me the humility to not to see myself losing something when having mistaken, but to be happy to be corrected. Because what is pride, but a seed of the enemy to harden our hearts from discerning the voice of love in Christ?

 

May the Father bless you abundantly.

[thomas t]

Time about some scriptures to make the case, thanks for that One Light.

 

Brother Thomas, I can understand if you feel being insulted and hopefully the tensions in conversations can be maintained respectful. However, don't forget one of the main pillars of our faith, that being forgiveness of which the Lord set out the most wonderful example Himself. Do not let any sort of accusations find place in your heart, yet discern and reflect upon what is true.

 

With respect, I might add, now that you finally were offered the scriptures speaking of God's infinite wisdom and knowing, don't you think it is a bit more than an opinion? I mean, sure, God has an opinion of things but it certainly cannot be compared to what we think.

 

Often I pray God to give me the humility to not to see myself losing something when having mistaken, but to be happy to be corrected. Because what is pride, but a seed of the enemy to harden our hearts from discerning the voice of love in Christ?

 

May the Father bless you abundantly.

 

Thank you for your compelling and sympathetic words, Dia.

 

I agree with you that OneLight's post would have been an excellent opportunity to get in a discussion about scripture, but for me, not responding here is a matter of safety against possibly getting insulted again rather than not forgiving.

 

Have a good evening,

Thomas