Belief Systems / Religion / Traditions of Men

[Sevenseas]

 

 

Ok, the Psalms in my view, do not give us details on how to worship.

 

[Sevenseas]

Worship is not form..It is our spirit to God's.  

 

At last that is what scripture states

[Qnts2]

Worship is not form..It is our spirit to God's.  

 

At last that is what scripture states

 

You are missing the point I am making.  

 

Worship is spiritual and physical. As an individual, everything I do should be an act of worship.

 

But worship in practice often involves traditions or rituals. Especially when we are talking about a group worshipping together.   

[Sevenseas]

OK, well, you stated you did not find the Psalms instructional regarding worship which, unless I misunderstood you totally although your words I quoted are plain enough,

and to be honest, I just find this thread has kind of meandered over hill and dale.....

 

I think you have some views that I do not share.  I'm not that cerebral about worshipping.   Anyhow, that's it for me here I think.

 

Thanks

[Qnts2]

OK, well, you stated you did not find the Psalms instructional regarding worship which, unless I misunderstood you totally although your words I quoted are plain enough,

and to be honest, I just find this thread has kind of meandered over hill and dale.....

 

I think you have some views that I do not share.  I'm not that cerebral about worshipping.   Anyhow, that's it for me here I think.

 

Thanks

 

I do not believe Psalms are instructional for worship. They are incomplete examples of individuals expressing in words, their experiences and thoughts. There are some things to be learned, like, some of the Psalms begin with the writer showing their frustration or anger with the situation, and questioning God. So, we know it is ok to express to God, honestly how we feel.

 

In individual worship, do people have set times for worship? That would be a personal tradition. Do you worship using music? That would be a personal preference or tradition. Do you sit down, stand or lay down? Do you have certain locations? Certain preparations?

 

I was bringing out traditions in worship and was thinking more about communal worship, but since people have habits, or traditions which are comfortable to them individually, it is likely that everyone has some things they do, for worship which can be called traditions. Traditions are not bad, but rather people are made in a way where everyone builds traditions. As long as the traditions do not violate scripture, they are fine.      

[Qnts2]

 

 

Didn't the pharisees add burdens to people by adding to laws?  I think that was a main point that Christ brought up if I'm not mistaken?

 

The priests robes in the tabernacle were extremely ornate.  God designed them.

 

I'd say God looks on the heart and wearing a cross if you are a Christian is not a sin.  I don't wear one, but I am not offended it someone does.

 

Do non-Christians wear them?  Don't non Christians also use God's name?  Do we stop using God's name in prayer?

 

Some things just don't add up 

 

Jesus did complain that the Pharisees added burdens with their addition to the law.

 

In the OT, the judges were to decide how the law was to be kept. The highest judge was the high priest. The first judge was Moses, who would sit and judge the people. So judges sit on 'Moses seat'. According to the Mosaic law, the children of Israel were to obey the judgement of the judges. Disobeying some of the judges judgements resulted in the death penalty.  Many of the Pharisees were judges, but not all. Jesus told the people to obey the Pharisees because they sit on Moses seat, which would be in agreement with the Mosaic laws requirements concerning judges.

 

The sect of the Pharisees has their start during the Babylonian captivity. During Jesus time, the land, 'Palestine', was actually occupied by Rome and the Roman leaders were often abusive. The Pharisees knew that they were essentially in captivity still, and the OT stated that the captivity was due to Israels sin. So the Pharisees dedicated themselves to studying, understanding and teaching scripture.

 

One of the concerns of the Pharisees, was that God did not give specifics on how to observe some of the laws. And some of the laws could be accidently broken. So, to help the people be obedient to the Mosaic law, the Pharisees setup a way to observe the law and not accidently break the law. They put a 'hedge' around the law, so no one would accidently break the law. For example, if work was to stop at sunset on Friday, so a person would not become occupied in concentration and accidently continue working after sunset, they intentionally stopped work before sunset, so they would not be working to close to the time and break the Sabbath law.

 

Were some of these hedges questionable? Absolutely, but not all of the hedges are unreasonable. Given that there were two main schools of thought among the Pharisees, the school of Shammai which held a stricter view of the law, and the school of Hillel which held a more merciful view of the law, generalizing about the Pharisees is hardly a real representation of the Pharisees. A real view gives a much better picture, and then the Pharisees, rather then being evil people, become everyday people in leadership, and a good warning of what some do wrong.      

 

There are many good points here.  Some of the Pharisees were sincere in what they did, and they were interpeting scripture as they understood it.  Yes, Jesus did say they stand in Moses seat.  The issues Jesus addressed was the Pharisees that laid heavy burdens on the people and didn't live by them.  He got on to them for creating traditions that overrode actual laws.  The Pharisees found a way to break the commandment to honor Father and Mother.  The biggest issues you find with the Pharisees were trying to create traditions to where they could break God's laws and be guiltless.  An even bigger problem with the Pharisees was that they denied Jesus.  Some did this because of unbelief, and some did it because he was a threat to their positions, much as Herod wanted to kill the King of the Jews because he felt a threat to his position?  I would tend to agree Jesus was not rebuking every last Pharisee, but I do believe he was coming against the majority? 

 

Since I see Jesus actually giving understandings of the law which were the positions of the Pharisees, I view the rebukes leveled at them as rebukes because they were so close to the truth but most taught the Jewish people to reject Jesus. The main theological issue was of course, Jesus claim to be equal to God. The Pharisees who were judges were in positions of power/leadership.  Jesus was rebuking them because, according to the law, the judges had to be obeyed. And as popular teachers, who were viewed as caring, their bad teachings were readily accepted. Since much of their teaching was accurate and true, and they were highly educated, and many had good intentions, the people would look up to them, and not necessarily question them. A little leaven in this case was really deadly as it kept people from believing in Jesus. Not that the Pharisees were worldly evil, as from a worldly standpoint, many were good people, merciful and charitable, trying to help others. They were dedicated to understanding scripture and being obedient to God. Of course, as in any group of people with power, some were corrupted by the power, but generally as a group, they were 'good' people.  

 

A view of the Pharisees as horrid and evil people leads to some issues. First of all, when Christians come down so hard on the Pharisees, it is an issue for the Jewish people who have actually read their writings. The two stories do not match. Also, a better view of the Pharisees is to compare them to someone like Mother Theresa who was known for her good works, but if she did not accept Jesus, would be lost despite her good works. Jesus said one had to do better works then the Pharisees, so compare that to saying a person has to do better works then Mother Theresa, to earn eternal life. Both did wonderful works, few can compete with, yet neither can earn eternal life by their works. If we can not match either one in works, and if we are depending on our good deeds to impress God, well, we will not impress God because Jesus said we had to do better then them.   

[fruitfull77]

I believe it was Jesus who came down hard on the Pharisees - Matt 12:34-37

Who else is a better Judge on the Law than Jesus?

Jesus had an obvious disregard for those who held man-made traditions.

Jesus taught His disciples the moral principles of the spirit of the Law at the same time condemning the " straining at a gnat and swallowing of a camel" legalistic attitude of the Pharisees.

Whatever the original concepts the religious leaders created to protect the Law  from the mistakes that Ancient Israel made were based on sincere dedications to God's law no doubt. But as time passed by the pure ideals of the originators became entangled into the  rigorous over-regulations of the sustainers 

Jesus is addressing the Pharisees of His day who have misapplied and traditionalized the original Mosaic code so much so that even the experts in the Law couldn't interpret the system.

[Qnts2]

I believe it was Jesus who came down hard on the Pharisees - Matt 12:34-37

Who else is a better Judge on the Law than Jesus?

Jesus had an obvious disregard for those who held man-made traditions.

Jesus taught His disciples the moral principles of the spirit of the Law at the same time condemning the " straining at a gnat and swallowing of a camel" legalistic attitude of the Pharisees.

Whatever the original concepts the religious leaders created to protect the Law  from the mistakes that Ancient Israel made were based on sincere dedications to God's law no doubt. But as time passed by the pure ideals of the originators became entangled into the  rigorous over-regulations of the sustainers 

Jesus is addressing the Pharisees of His day who have misapplied and traditionalized the original Mosaic code so much so that even the experts in the Law couldn't interpret the system.

 

 

Jesus did come down hard on the Pharisees and other leaders. But, you must understand who the Pharisees were, what they taught, etc. To assume that all Pharisees are horrid people, terrible sinners, etc, is misjudging and misrepresenting the people. To truly understand the Pharisees as generally good people, then the same sins exists today among Christians.  

 

Jesus wrote the law but clearly had no issue with 'man-made' traditions as He practiced, used and approved of 'man-made' traditions. And that is my point. Since Jesus so clearly used and approved of traditions, there is nothing wrong with traditions. People, all people, have traditions. The only traditions Jesus came against were those which contradicted the law or broke the Mosaic law. The other traditions are fine. Jesus who is God, and wrote the law, practiced traditions, and Jesus did not sin.  

 

It is clear from the law, that it was up to people who were judges to interpret the law for the people. So, the judges were given that job by God, in the Mosaic law, and the job of interpretation was not a violation of the law. Jesus challenged the judges, who had the authority from the Mosaic law given by God, for overstepping or overreaching which actually resulted in some situations in a violation of the law. Why was it laying on burdens on the people? Because according to the Mosaic law, the people were to obey the judges.

 

So, the Pharisees were actually zealous for the law which is good. They studied the scriptures which was good. They sought to help people learn the scripture and obey God which was good.  

Traditions are not bad. People, all people, practice traditions. Jesus, who was God, practiced quite a few of the traditions which the leadership of the Jewish people taught. It was only those traditions which went against the law which Jesus objected to. So so called 'man made' traditions are not necessarily bad, unless you want to say Jesus did bad. It is maybe a modern day tradition among some to say traditions are man made and bad, but that statement and judgement violates scripture.

[Willa]

I believe I'll be quite humbled when I get to heaven and find all the points I was in error on, as I believe all will. There is no one on earth that is infallible in their beliefs. I'm learning and be corrected on many things as I go along my faith journey. I think that is a good thing. The time to worry I believe is when you think you know it all.

 

 

I would agree with the above.

I used to have a bumper sticker that read: THOSE WHO THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL UPSET THOSE OF US WHO DO!. lol

It was a good reminder to myself. I like the p.s." About the time I get on my high horse, Jesus rides off on his donkey." as well. Is that on Fresno Joe's or Omegaman's. Can't remember. But I do need these occasionally when I start to lose my patience.

[fruitfull77]

 

I believe it was Jesus who came down hard on the Pharisees - Matt 12:34-37

Who else is a better Judge on the Law than Jesus?

Jesus had an obvious disregard for those who held man-made traditions.

Jesus taught His disciples the moral principles of the spirit of the Law at the same time condemning the " straining at a gnat and swallowing of a camel" legalistic attitude of the Pharisees.

Whatever the original concepts the religious leaders created to protect the Law  from the mistakes that Ancient Israel made were based on sincere dedications to God's law no doubt. But as time passed by the pure ideals of the originators became entangled into the  rigorous over-regulations of the sustainers 

Jesus is addressing the Pharisees of His day who have misapplied and traditionalized the original Mosaic code so much so that even the experts in the Law couldn't interpret the system.

 

 

Jesus did come down hard on the Pharisees and other leaders. But, you must understand who the Pharisees were, what they taught, etc. To assume that all Pharisees are horrid people, terrible sinners, etc, is misjudging and misrepresenting the people. To truly understand the Pharisees as generally good people, then the same sins exists today among Christians.  

 

Jesus wrote the law but clearly had no issue with 'man-made' traditions as He practiced, used and approved of 'man-made' traditions. And that is my point. Since Jesus so clearly used and approved of traditions, there is nothing wrong with traditions. People, all people, have traditions. The only traditions Jesus came against were those which contradicted the law or broke the Mosaic law. The other traditions are fine. Jesus who is God, and wrote the law, practiced traditions, and Jesus did not sin.  

 

It is clear from the law, that it was up to people who were judges to interpret the law for the people. So, the judges were given that job by God, in the Mosaic law, and the job of interpretation was not a violation of the law. Jesus challenged the judges, who had the authority from the Mosaic law given by God, for overstepping or overreaching which actually resulted in some situations in a violation of the law. Why was it laying on burdens on the people? Because according to the Mosaic law, the people were to obey the judges.

 

So, the Pharisees were actually zealous for the law which is good. They studied the scriptures which was good. They sought to help people learn the scripture and obey God which was good.  

Traditions are not bad. People, all people, practice traditions. Jesus, who was God, practiced quite a few of the traditions which the leadership of the Jewish people taught. It was only those traditions which went against the law which Jesus objected to. So so called 'man made' traditions are not necessarily bad, unless you want to say Jesus did bad. It is maybe a modern day tradition among some to say traditions are man made and bad, but that statement and judgement violates scripture.

 

What man made traditions did Jesus observe?

The Pharisees elevated their traditions over the intent of the God's Laws.

Besides the washing of pitchers and cups the " Corban " a gift to the temple proclaims a special devotion to God as an excuse  for refusing to help one's needy parents and makes a mockery of service to God since it violates the fifth commandment.-Mark 7:11

The Pharisees  were so obsessed with the minute details of the righteous requirements they were blinded to the big picture-the major spiritual aspects of the Law. Matt23:23

The traditions and teaching of the Jewish leaders contradicted the spiritual intent of God's Laws.

The 6th Commandment-all the Pharisees understood was the act of murder-Jesus tried to teach them just the thought or idea of murdering someone in their mind was a sin breaking the commandment.

7th Commandment-the Pharisees only understood the physical act of sexual relations not that just the lust for another woman was enough to break the Law.

This is what Jesus meant when He said we must exceed the righteousness  of the Pharisees..

 

Zeal can easily be misdirected or misapplied too often - Romans 10:2-3