Questions about Acts 3?

[Guest Butero]

I don't think that passage confirms or shows the rapture to be an incorrect theory.  In my opinion, it isn't saying that Jesus can't come back long enough to meet a number of believers in the sky before the tribulation takes place.  I personally believe in the rapture, and that only a small number that are watching and waiting and keeping themselves unspotted from the world will be taken, but I am not dogmatic about it.  I have seen reasonable arguments for an against it.  But as far as this passage goes, I don't find anything conclusive about it.  I do see the point you are making though. 

[Montana Marv]

Shalom, Parker1.

 

 

 

I think that you are misinterpreting Scripture. At the Rapture, the Church meets Christ in the clouds, his feet never touch the Earth; therefore He remains in Heaven. The Rapture is NOT the Second Coming.

So, are you saying that Jesus does not have to leave Heaven (the abode of God that He ascended to) becuase he merely went down to the heavens, the atmosphere, where the clouds are, and therefore, as long as His feet hover an inch over the ground, He is still in Heaven? Really? Cool. I can reach heaven just by jumping or taking a plane trip!

 

That's just ignorant. The clouds are not an inch from the ground. And there are said to be three Heavens; the atmosphere, the universe, and the place where GOD lives. The Rapture is NOT the Second Coming.

 

 

Well, that's the common error. Actually, Peter said that the first "heaven" (atmosphere) was before the Flood, the second "heaven" (atmosphere) is between Noah's Flood and the Fire, and the third "heaven" (atmosphere) will be after the Fire. See 2 Peter 3:3-13.

Roy

 

Where do you read that. I see nothing of what you say.  It is not there in 2 Peter 3.  Peter said that the earth was formed out of water and by water.  By these same waters the earth was destroyed (Noah's Flood).  Then the present day heavens and earth are reserved for fire. Cleansing from all that Satan has bestowed on creation. This before the New Jerusalem.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[justfaith]

I think that you are misinterpreting Scripture. At the Rapture, the Church meets Christ in the clouds, his feet never touch the Earth; therefore He remains in Heaven. The Rapture is NOT the Second Coming.

By comparing point by point in the following two passages, we can observe that both of the following two 

chapters are referring to the same event. Observe the perfect parallels below. 

 

        1 Thessalonians 4                                           1 Corinthians 15 

4:16 - the Lord Himself shall come                          15:23 - are Christ’s at His coming 

4:14 - sleep                                                             15:51 - sleep 

4:16 - shout, voice, trump                                        15:52 - the trumpet shall sound 

4:16 - dead in Christ shall rise first                           15:52 - dead shall be raised 

[justfaith]

I think that you are misinterpreting Scripture. At the Rapture, the Church meets Christ in the clouds, his feet never touch the Earth; therefore He remains in Heaven. The Rapture is NOT the Second Coming.

Now compare Matthew 24 with the above events using 1 Thessalonians since some erroneously teach that  Matthew 24 is talking about the glorious second coming of Jesus, which they teach is a different event to the above chapters which they say refers to a secret rapture. 

   1 Thessalonians 4 and 5                            Matthew 24 

4:15 - coming (Parousia)                 24:27 - coming (Parousia) 

4:17 - clouds                                   24:30 - clouds 

4:16 - shout, voice trump                24:31 - sound of a trumpet 

4:17 - caught up together               24:31 - gather together 

5:1 – times and seasons                24:36 - day or hour 

5:2 - a thief                                      24:43 - a thief 

5:3 - sudden destruction                  24:39 - took them all away 

5:6 - watch                                       24:42 - watch 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Montana Marv.

 

Roy

 

 

Where do you read that. I see nothing of what you say.  It is not there in 2 Peter 3.  Peter said that the earth was formed out of water and by water.  By these same waters the earth was destroyed (Noah's Flood).  Then the present day heavens and earth are reserved for fire. Cleansing from all that Satan has bestowed on creation. This before the New Jerusalem.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

"Nothing?" Really? First of all, it is NOT true that the earth was "formed out of water and by water." Where'd you get THAT?! 

READ IT AGAIN:

 

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = Hebrew: shaamaayim) were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

 

This is saying that God created the earth - the ground - the "terra firma" - to stand up out of the waters called "seas." And yet, it also stood "in the water"; that is, it was surrounded by the waters above the "firmament." (The "firmament" itself God called "shaamaayim" or the "skies" or the "gases" or the "atmosphere." "Shaamaayim" is a plural word, just as "ouranoi" is the plural of "ouranos.") Remember Genesis 1:6-10 (days 2 and 3 of the Creation Week):

 

Genesis 1:6-10

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven (Hebrew: shaamaayim = "skies"). And the evening and the morning were the second day.

 

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven (that God JUST named) be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth (Hebrew: erets = "ground/land/earth"); and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

KJV

 

Simon Peter (Shim`own "Kefa," Hellenized as "Cephas") is NOT contradicting what was written in the Torah! He KNEW what was written in the Torah within that portion we call "Genesis!" They read through the Torah EVERY YEAR! He knew it BETTER than we do today because He spoke its language! Continuing on in 2 Peter 3...

 

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

 

(At least you got Noah's Flood correct.)

 

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 

Yes, as you said, "the present day heavens and earth are reserved for fire." Now, Peter doesn't actually NUMBER these environments; that is, he doesn't call them the "first heavens and earth" and the "second heavens and earth," but we can COUNT, can't we?! Then, he adds the THIRD environment:

 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

 

So, count them! This would be a "THIRD heavens and earth!" Why do you have such a problem with that? Is it simply because you can't face the fact that we've been told a fib all these years?

[Willa]

Acts 15:16-17 After this I will return and rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the gentiles that are called by My Name, Says the Lord Who does all things. NKJV

I also believe that Jesus' 2nd coming is spoken of here.. I also firmly believe that you confuse the 2nd coming with our being caught up to meet Him which occurs prior to His coming again. Otherwise we would not be able to return with him. We are repeatedly told that we are not destined for wrath.

Rev 7:9, NKJV after the sealing of the 144,000 Jews: After these things I looked, and behold a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tingues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands.. 14. These are the ones who come out of great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So if we do go through the great trib, we do not go through the wrath which follows in chapter 8.

[coheir]

[Omegaman]

But notice that this says that Heaven must receive Jesus UNTIL the period of restoration.

[Omegaman]

 

The time of restoration starts immediately before the Rapture and ends at start of 1000 yrs.

how I see it.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Willamina.

 

Acts 15:16-17 After this I will return and rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the gentiles that are called by My Name, Says the Lord Who does all things. NKJV

I also believe that Jesus' 2nd coming is spoken of here. I also firmly believe that you confuse the 2nd coming with our being caught up to meet Him which occurs prior to His coming again. Otherwise we would not be able to return with him. We are repeatedly told that we are not destined for wrath.

Rev 7:9, NKJV after the sealing of the 144,000 Jews: After these things I looked, and behold a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands.. 14. These are the ones who come out of great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So if we do go through the great trib, we do not go through the wrath which follows in chapter 8.

 

Where to begin.... I am a Messianic Jew. So, I looked up Amos 9:11-12 from which this quote was taken and noticed right away that the "tabernacle of David" is David's sukkah (cukah in my transliteration scheme or cukat in the noun construct state)! We're right now in the middle of the week of Sukkot, or as you might have read, "the Feast of Tabernacles." So, this is David's sukkah, but what is significant about such a structure? It was neither a "house" nor was it a "tent," per se; it was a HUT that was constructed for the purposes of meeting with others outside one's normal residence. In the case of David's sukkah, it was the structure built over His judgment seat existing outside of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem).

 

Amos 9:11-12

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

KJV

 

 

It is DEFINITELY about Yeshua`s second coming! It is talking about the war tribunal at the beginning of the Millennium!

 

Joel 3:1-2

1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

KJV

Now, you are correct on many things regarding the second coming, but the reason for the "harpazoo" is NOT to "take us out of the way" or to "keep us from the wrath of God!" The reason for the "harpazoo" is to provide a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM for all God's saints to bring us to Yeshua` while He is still within the air and about to DESCEND!

 

We are already IN the "tribulation period!" It is NOT a "seven-year period," because it is NOT synonymous with the seventieth Seven of Daniel 9:24-27! It's more like a "2000-year period" such that there are "bookends" of 3.5-year offers of the Kingdom to Isra'el. The first one was during the "ministry" of Yeshua` (Jesus) during His first advent. When they rejected Him, He also rejected that generation and shelved Isra'el until they can welcome Him as the Messiah of God.

 

Matthew 23:37-39

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till (until) ye shall say, BLESSED IS HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.

KJV

 

Psalm 118:22-26

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

KJV

 

Now, the Hebrew of verse 26's phrase (transliterated) is this:

 

26 Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH:...

 

It literally translates to "Welcome, the-comer in-name/authority of-YHWH." And, the "Comer in the authority of YHWH" is the Messiah, Yeshua` (the Christ Jesus).

 

Thus, HE was the one who put the gap within the 70 Sevens, but the gap is NOT between the 69th and the 70th Seven; it's in the MIDDLE of the 70th Seven! The first half of the Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" or actually His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el. But, for the overspreading of the abominations of rejecting Him, their house was left to them desolate, and they have been desolate and suffering the Time of Ya`aqov's (Jacob's) Trouble ever since! That will change when they welcome Him back, and when Yeshua` returns, He will continue the offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el. He was to be King of the Jews (of the tribe of Y'hudah or Judah), but He was also to be accepted as King of Isra'el, and then, like His ancestor Shlomoh (Solomon), He will become a King of kings, that is, a World Emperor!

[coheir]

 

Shalom, Willamina.

 

Acts 15:16-17 After this I will return and rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the gentiles that are called by My Name, Says the Lord Who does all things. NKJV

I also believe that Jesus' 2nd coming is spoken of here. I also firmly believe that you confuse the 2nd coming with our being caught up to meet Him which occurs prior to His coming again. Otherwise we would not be able to return with him. We are repeatedly told that we are not destined for wrath.

Rev 7:9, NKJV after the sealing of the 144,000 Jews: After these things I looked, and behold a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands.. 14. These are the ones who come out of great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So if we do go through the great trib, we do not go through the wrath which follows in chapter 8.

 

Where to begin.... I am a Messianic Jew. So, I looked up Amos 9:11-12 from which this quote was taken and noticed right away that the "tabernacle of David" is David's sukkah (cukah in my transliteration scheme or cukat in the noun construct state)! We're right now in the middle of the week of Sukkot, or as you might have read, "the Feast of Tabernacles." So, this is David's sukkah, but what is significant about such a structure? It was neither a "house" nor was it a "tent," per se; it was a HUT that was constructed for the purposes of meeting with others outside one's normal residence. In the case of David's sukkah, it was the structure built over His judgment seat existing outside of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem).

 

Amos 9:11-12

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

KJV

 

 

It is DEFINITELY about Yeshua`s second coming! It is talking about the war tribunal at the beginning of the Millennium!

 

Joel 3:1-2

1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

KJV

Now, you are correct on many things regarding the second coming, but the reason for the "harpazoo" is NOT to "take us out of the way" or to "keep us from the wrath of God!" The reason for the "harpazoo" is to provide a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM for all God's saints to bring us to Yeshua` while He is still within the air and about to DESCEND!

 

We are already IN the "tribulation period!" It is NOT a "seven-year period," because it is NOT synonymous with the seventieth Seven of Daniel 9:24-27! It's more like a "2000-year period" such that there are "bookends" of 3.5-year offers of the Kingdom to Isra'el. The first one was during the "ministry" of Yeshua` (Jesus) during His first advent. When they rejected Him, He also rejected that generation and shelved Isra'el until they can welcome Him as the Messiah of God.

 

Matthew 23:37-39

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till (until) ye shall say, BLESSED IS HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.

KJV

 

Psalm 118:22-26

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

KJV

 

Now, the Hebrew of verse 26's phrase (transliterated) is this:

 

26 Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH:...

 

It literally translates to "Welcome, the-comer in-name/authority of-YHWH." And, the "Comer in the authority of YHWH" is the Messiah, Yeshua` (the Christ Jesus).

 

Thus, HE was the one who put the gap within the 70 Sevens, but the gap is NOT between the 69th and the 70th Seven; it's in the MIDDLE of the 70th Seven! The first half of the Seven was Yeshua`s "ministry" or actually His offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el. But, for the overspreading of the abominations of rejecting Him, their house was left to them desolate, and they have been desolate and suffering the Time of Ya`aqov's (Jacob's) Trouble ever since! That will change when they welcome Him back, and when Yeshua` returns, He will continue the offer of the Kingdom to Isra'el. He was to be King of the Jews (of the tribe of Y'hudah or Judah), but He was also to be accepted as King of Isra'el, and then, like His ancestor Shlomoh (Solomon), He will become a King of kings, that is, a World Emperor!

 

Im not an expert by any means, this sounds like Preterism. Am I missing something in the post I should not miss?

[Willa]

Thank you Retro, I always enjoy and learn from our many Messianic Jews that post here. So whether I agree with you 100% or not, I consider your contribution valuable and will continue to study it. Others have also mentioned that they think the first 3.5 years was during the ministry of Christ. I need to study this more.

Blessings, and a joyous Sukkot!

Willa