Questions about Acts 3?

[Guest]

 

 

Still looking for ideas about the period of restoration off all things.

Act 3:19     

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Presence -

Strongs 4383

    the face

        the front of the human head

        ---snip---

 

- maybe Sixth Seal? Doesnt make a whole lot of sense, with the following wrath and all, I'm just fishing for clues.

 

and thanks so much for that. I was not previously aware that this word, prosōpon, was ever translated as presense, interesting. The word is used 44 times in the new testament: http://biblesuite.com/greek/proso_pon_4383.htm

[Openly Curious]

What do you think the time of restoration of all things is? What ever it is, it seems that it has to occur after Jesus returns and He won't return until until it is time for the restoration to begin. I cannot see how His return can fit anywhere other that between the tribulation and the 1000 years without really odd assumptions. What do you think?

 

Perhaps this scriptural passage will give some insight into the restoration of all things in order found in....

 

1 Corinthians 15:21-28 - For since by man came death, by man came the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order:  Christ the firstfruits; Afterwards they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till, he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.  For he hath put all things under his feet.  But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

All things in this present world whether people, nations, kingdoms etc., are being restored back to the Father through Jesus Christ in their specific times and order.  The second coming of Christ will be when Christ has subdued all things under him all the nations the anti-christ, Satan the beast, all the nations of the earth, the 144,000 Jews caught up. My personal belief is that this will be at the end of the tribulation when all of these things have be subdued and the 1000 year millenial reign will begin in this earth.  All things will be restored back to the Father through Jesus and the curse will finally be taken away as there will be a new heaven and a new earth.  When the saints will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air after the dead in Christ rise from the dead can happen anytime nothing has to be fullfilled or restored for that event to come to pass.  Hope this has helped    

[Montana Marv]

A question is:  Who is the audience that this question is given to?  Israel.  When will Israel be restored? Zech 13:9b - I will say, they are my people, and they will say, the Lord is our God. This happens at the onset of the 1000 years. 

 

This question in the OP is NOT a Rapture timing indicator.  It is a Second Coming indicator.

 

John 14:2,3 - In my Fathers house are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you.  I am going there to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you may be where I am.  You know the way to the place where I am going.

 

When do we go to the Fathers house, and how long will we be there?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Fez]

 

 

Still looking for ideas about the period of restoration off all things.

What do you think the restoration of all things will be?

Before the fall?

 

If the restoration of all things is to a state like before the fall, that would have to be the Millenium or later I would think. If that is the case, then Jesus would not be leaving Heaven until at least after Armageddon, but we know from Matt 24 and elsewhere, that He leaves Heaven immediately after the tribulation. So while a pristine state such as before the fall would seem a perfect match to the idea of the restoration of all things, I don't think that understanding is possible, considering His parousia (coming to be present) in Matt 24. Thanks for the suggestion, do you disagree with my assumptions in this post?

 

I don't disagree brother, but I really think that the restoration of all things is the cardinal point. What that is may well be Israel, but here is no way to tell is there?

 

Isa 9:6  For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 

Isa 9:7  Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. 

 

Exo 39:6  They made the onyx stones, enclosed in settings of gold filigree, and engraved like the engravings of a signet, according to the names of the sons of Israel.

Exo 39:7  And he set them on the shoulder pieces of the ephod to be stones of remembrance for the sons of Israel, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

 

Kind of looks like to me that the government shall be upon His shoulder, and the shoulder pieces represent Israel.

 

Just a thought.

[Guest]

A question is:  Who is the audience that this question is given to?  Israel.  When will Israel be restored? Zech 13:9b - I will say, they are my people, and they will say, the Lord is our God. This happens at the onset of the 1000 years. 

 

This question in the OP is NOT a Rapture timing indicator.  It is a Second Coming indicator.

 

John 14:2,3 - In my Fathers house are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you.  I am going there to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you may be where I am.  You know the way to the place where I am going.

 

When do we go to the Fathers house, and how long will we be there?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Hi Marv, thanks for your input. In the first place, there is no question, just a statement of fact, that being that "Jesus must remain in Heaven until". It does not say that He must remain until the second coming, it says He must remain there until the time of restoration, I know you believe that the rapture and the second coming are separated by some years, but that is an idea that you bring to the scriptures with you, it is not found in scripture itself. Certainly, nothing in Acts 3 says anything about the rapture or the second com9ing specifically, the emphasis is not on any coming, it is on His leaving Heaven, so it should logically apply to either/both events. He cannot come to earth or to the clouds above earth, without leaving His current abode in heaven. Any other understanding is imaginative and quite a stretch of language.

You asked: "When do we go to the Fathers house, and how long will we be there?" 

 2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, [there] you may be also.

 

1 Thess 4

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Well, my answer would be, that at the end of the tribulation, Jesus will come, the dead in Christ will rise, the living Christians will rise next to join Jesus and the resurrected believers in the air, and after that all those believers, the formerly dead in Christ and the ones who will be alive at the time, will be with Jesus always.

So, how long will they be there?  Depends on how long Jesus will be there, since we will be forever with Him. I suspect you have no trouble identifying the Thess 4 reference with the rapture. I think that means to you, correct me if I am wrong, that you think Jesus doesn't leave heaven, but somehow descends without leaving, and that somehow the dead in Christ move Heavenward, without moving Earthward and this time.

If the believers with Christ are moving Heavenward, why are they brought with Jesus. The most natural way to understand the idea of being brought (as opposed to taken) ould mean brought in the direction of the observer/story teller, in other words they are brought to Earth. If we want to assume that they are brought to Heaven, we have a small linguistic dilemma.  In this understanding, believers cannot be brought to Heaven, since they are already there, if Jesus has not left Heaven as per Acts 3, our verses of discussion.

 

I share (I think) your conclusion that it is at the onset of the Millenium, or at least I think that is quite possible. That sounds like a restoration of all things, certainly sounds more like that than anything I can think of that occurs before the Tribulation, which has been part of my point. I do not think that any restoration happens before the end of the trib, so Jesus must remain in Heaven until at least the end of the trib, making a pre-trib rapture impossible without straining language to the breaking point, inventing new definitions for where the borders of heaven are, and nitpicking what bringing, taking, coming, presense etc all mean in normal usage.

 

I am a fan of natural, likely and common use of language, and literal understandings unless they are unworkable. Just a difference of philosophy I guess.

[Montana Marv]

Omegaman

 

Then how was it possible for Saul to be talking to Jesus at his conversion.  Acts 9:3-6 - As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.  He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him; Saul, Saul, why do you persecuted me?  Who are you Lord Saul asked.  A am Jesus whom you are persecuting, he replied. Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.

 

Was Jesus still in heaven until the restoration of all things at this time. Or was He here on earth as Saul conversed with Jesus.  Your supposition is dismantled by this conversion of Saul.  The Pre-Trib Rapture position is possible, a time which cannot be calculated, an unknown time. Post-Trib can be calculated, a known time.

 

Why would Christians need to be around during the 70th week, or even at the end of the week?  Not for preaching the gospel.  For there is an angel flying in midair preaching the eternal gospel to every nation, tribe, language and people (Rev 14:6,7).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv
 

[missmuffet]

I think that you are misinterpreting Scripture. At the Rapture, the Church meets Christ in the clouds, his feet never touch the Earth; therefore He remains in Heaven. The Rapture is NOT the Second Coming.

Right 

[firestormx]

I am not going to pretend I know the answer to this question you are asking, but out of curiosity, do you think it could have anything to do with the 70 weeks prophecy.

 

Daniel 9:24

“Seventy weeks^[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of^[b] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

 

it says something in the verse you quoted about the prophets of old talking about it. Could this be one of the references of the restoration of all things?

 

Edited............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. 

 

P.S. I was doing a little more digging and came across this verse as well. Please let me know what you think of them in regards to your question.

 

Matt. 17:11

Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.

Edited November 25, 2013 by firestormx

[Guest]

Omegaman

 

Then how was it possible for Saul to be talking to Jesus at his conversion.  Acts 9:3-6 - As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.  He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him; Saul, Saul, why do you persecuted me?  Who are you Lord Saul asked.  A am Jesus whom you are persecuting, he replied. Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.

 

Was Jesus still in heaven until the restoration of all things at this time. Or was He here on earth as Saul conversed with Jesus.  Your supposition is dismantled by this conversion of Saul.  The Pre-Trib Rapture position is possible, a time which cannot be calculated, an unknown time. Post-Trib can be calculated, a known time.

 

Why would Christians need to be around during the 70th week, or even at the end of the week?  Not for preaching the gospel.  For there is an angel flying in midair preaching the eternal gospel to every nation, tribe, language and people (Rev 14:6,7).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Sorry Marv, I did not mean to neglect responding, I have not visited this thread in quite a while, so I was unaware that you have responded.

 

Without even considering any eschatological implications of Paul's encounter with Christ, I never thought of it as a physical presence, I just always assumed it was more of a vision. Then after reading your post, I asked myself, "Is there any reason to think that visitation was something other than His physical, bodily presence"

 

I looked in Acts 9 to find out, and there is reason to think it might not be a physical presence. When Paul was on the road to Damascus, he was not alone but was with other men. The text specifically says, that the others did not see Him. I think it is reasonable to conclude that if Jesus was not seen through natural eyes of the other men, then perhaps He was not physically present.  Further, when before King Agrippa, Paul says: “So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision". On these basis I see no reason to assume that Jesus had returned to earth or left Heaven.

 

I think then, since the others did not see Him, and Paul himself refers to it as a vision, I think I have reasonably answered your question: "Then how was it possible for Saul to be talking to Jesus at his conversion?" Therefore  your supposition that my supposition is dismantled by this conversion of Saul, seems itself dismantled to me.

 

You also stated: " The Pre-Trib Rapture position is possible, a time which cannot be calculated, an unknown time. Post-Trib can be calculated, a known time."

 

I have not claimed that the pre-trib position is impossible, my position is that it is not taught ins scripture, and that in is contraindicated by scripture in general. It is never stated in scripture, it is only believed by unlikely inferences and wishful thinking. I think the logic presented here, that if Jesus must remain in heaven until the restoration, and the restoration has not yet occurred, then He cannot leave Heaven imminently. I am just asking for a pre-trib restoration of all things to be shown. If it can be, then of course He can return at any time.

 

There is no verse that I am aware of, that requires that the time of His return cannot be known, that is just sloppy exegesis on the part of those who hold that, reading into scripture something that is not said. I have to wonder, why pre-tribbers keep going with that weak argument.

 

You also asked: "Why would Christians need to be around during the 70th week, or even at the end of the week?"

 

Seriously? Since when does the truth of something depend and being able to answer something that only God might know? That reduces understanding of scripture to the level of human reasoning, instead of God's revelation, doesn't it?

 

People ask questions like that all the time. Like: Why would a loving God send people to Hell?  I do not have to know the answer why, to know that the Bible says that is the way it is.

 

 

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

[Guest]

I am not going to pretend I know the answer to this question you are asking, but out of curiosity, do you think it could have anything to do with the 70 weeks prophecy.

 

Daniel 9:24

“Seventy weeks^[a] are determined

For your people and for your holy city,

To finish the transgression,

To make an end of^[b] sins,

To make reconciliation for iniquity,

To bring in everlasting righteousness,

To seal up vision and prophecy,

And to anoint the Most Holy.

 

it says something in the verse you quoted about the prophets of old talking about it. Could this be one of the references of the restoration of all things?

 

Edited............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. 

 

P.S. I was doing a little more digging and came across this verse as well. Please let me know what you think of them in regards to your question.

 

Matt. 17:11

Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.

The Daniel one is food for thought to be sure, and 69 of those weeks are past, with one week remaining, that week that contains the tribulation I suppose, at least this is a very common understanding. If that understanding is accurate, then that still points to Jesus not leaving heaven until after that last week. The Matt 17:11 is VERY interesting. Let's quote more context:

 

10And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

 

That exact phrase the restoration of all things seems like it could sure fit the bill. There are some difficulties here I cannot explain and do not understand. Clearly Jesus here says Elijah will come, future tense. He also say Elijah already came but was not recognized, in the person of John the baptizer. Just before this, Elijah was just there, apparently in a vision.

 

Now, wondering how John was Elisha, we get a clue perhaps from Luke 1:

 

13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14“You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. 16“And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God. 17“It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

 

I post these things for something for people to ponder, I claim no insight as to what is going one here. However, since Jesus assured them that Elijah is yet to come and restore all thing, I think you may be on to something here. If I had to guess, Elijah has not yet come again and restored all things, things sure do not look restored to me. If my thinking on this point is correct, then Jesus  cannot yet leave Heaven, unless of course someone can demonstrate that Elijah came back and restored all things.

 

Thanks for that Matt reference, however, it still does not tell us when of what the restoration of all things is, only that Elijah seems to be an agent of it. Very interesting.