One Way Love: An Antidote to Legalism?

[Guest Butero]

 

 

No Butero.  That is not the question at all because every single one of us does sin.  We have forgiveness through the blood of Christ and if we confess our sins, God who is faithful

and just will forgive our sins.

 

This thread was not ever about sin.  It was always about grace.  God's grace.  I understand that some people are not quite comfortable accepting that as their robe of righteousness

and that some alterations may be in order.

 

I for one, however, do not ever imagine I can add to the grace of God.  I also know I cannot make anyone else stop sinning.  The only thing I can do, is pray for others.  Only the Holy Spirit

can create a new heart.  

 

God alone can see each of our hearts and He does not tell us to keep account of the hearts of others.  

 

As I cannot save even myself, I doubt your question with regards to others has any validity at all.  It is by grace that we are saved and not through any works just in case

anyone should boast.

 

So, praise God, He alone saves and He alone keeps those saved who are saved.

That being the case Sevenseas, that would mean that a Christian is free to do anything they want, good or bad.  It would also mean that those scriptures that tell us certain sins will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven are a lie, or the people committing those sins were never saved.  You said you are not promoting sin, and I am not suggesting you are, but at the same time, you are telling people that their behavior has no bearing on their being saved or lost.  That means that if a Christian does carry on an affair or takes up robbing banks, and even kills someone in the process, their soul is safe, provided they were a Christian in the first place?  If you think I am misrepresenting your position, I want you to explain where I am wrong?  I agree that if someone confesses their sins, no matter how bad they are, there is forgiveness, but what of those who don't confess them? 

 

 

You have an arguement with God Butero...not with me.  I am sorry you do not seem able to be able to understand what the rest of us do understand and thank God for...

and that would be the fact that the work of Jesus on the cross is finished and we cannot add to it.

 

It is an insult to God to keep insisting that people who are clothed with the righteousness of Christ, need to keep parts of the law or that God is somehow incapable of 

saving to the utmost those who are His.

 

Actually, Paul did say a Christian is free to do what they want....the difference is, you think freedom means we should sin and the rest of us think it means we are free

to follow Christ.

 

Big difference there Butero.  BIG difference.

 

What you said is not true.  First of all, your making a broad statement claiming "the rest of us," have the same understanding of scripture you do.  They do not.  There are entire denominations that disagree with your interpretation of scripture.  You are also making a false claim when you say that I think "freedom means we should sin."  I never said any such thing.  If you are going to claim I did, go back and show where I said that and prove it.  What I said is, based on what you said, a Christian is free to do anything good or bad.  I never even made the claim you said they "should" sin.  Nobody would disagree with you that we are free to follow Christ.  If you are going to claim I said different, prove it by showing direct quotes where I said that. 

[Sevenseas]

Well, actually, yes it does most certainly appear to be true.  The fact that you keep insisting that I think Christians have freedom to sin, even though I have corrected you on this

matter consistently, with patience and perserverance from thread to thread, indicates to me that you do not understand what I post from Scripture.  

 

This thread is about the grace of God and you keep insisting that you want everyone to explain to you what we should do about those who say they are Christians but are

not Christians.  

 

Apart from the fact that I am not the judge of anyone elses's heart and apart from the fact that God is able to save each one who belongs to Him to the

uttermost,  yes, apart from those facts, you have constantly gone off topic and yet we all have shown grace and tried to swing the thread back in the direction it started from.

 

Yes, Butero.  You most certainly and alarmingly do have a different understanding than most who have responded to this op.  Which, I might add, is why it has gone in circles

since practically the point of its inception.

 

Further, if someone calls you on something you have stated, you then make an attempt to state they did not understand you.  This, I find kind of grievous as it indicates further

misunderstanding and lack of communication that really, is an injustice to those of us who have labored with you throughout this thread and many other threads as well; the content

of which will in some way shape or form, seek to consider God's grace.  

 

It is my experience that you make little effort to acknowledge that absolutely no one has ever said we are free to sin yet you say that we say this over and over and  over and over.

 

This is a loose/loose situation.  I would really hope you might take the time to try and understand what others have written to you without accusing them of being rude or what have you.

 

This may have worked for you in the past...you may have upset me or others with your insistence that we think God's grace means keeps on sinning, however, after prayer and reflection,

I have come to understand that patience is indeed a virtue here and who knows, you may yet acknowledge what we have tried repeatedly to help you understand.

 

There is really nothing left here to say.  I pray God would open your eyes to understanding according to His word and I pray that you would come to acknowledge that none of us,

absolutely not one single one of us, has ever said or implied that is it fine to continue in sin.

 

God bless.  That's it for me in this thread.l

[Guest shiloh357]

 

It is very difficult to have a conversation with you because your comments are always insulting, which automatically causes me to want to respond with insults.  Even so, I am going to do my best to give answers that don't violate the TOS. 

 

Stop playing the victim, Butero.  You were laughing at me and calling what I said, "stupid."  You drew first blood and I didn't respond in kind.

 

Your context argument ONLY addresses why the passage was written.  It doesn't have any bearing on the FACT that people that commit certain sins SHALL NOT inherit the Kingdom of heaven.  The context matters to the question of why the passage was written. 

 

 

 

Precisely, the problem is that you have to ignore that fact to use this as a prooftext for claiming that a Christian will lose their salvation for if they commit those sins.  You have to ignore the reason and insist on simply taking the text at face value to use it in the improper way you use it. You are using the text in a way that ignores the reason in order to apply it to the doctrine  of Salvation, even though Paul was not addressing the doctrine of salvation in that passage.  When people start taking passages and applying them to biblical doctrines that those passsages were not intending to address, it skews those doctrines. 

 

It is funny.  I have never looked at it as a waste of time trying to clarify something when another person didn't understand my meaning?  I would rather go out of my way to get them to understand my intent, than constantly insult them for not getting it the first time? 

 

What I said is that I have to stop and clarify over and over and over one post after another because you overstate and exaggerate my comments just so you can have something to knock down. And it gets really old.  You seem to have an unswerving ability to not comprehend simple concepts.

 

 

I don't believe everyone understood your meaning, and you can't prove such a statement. 

 

 

They did, and you don't see anyone else coming on here and demanding that I clarify my points.  In fact, in just about all of my interactions, I spend more time correcting your misrepresentations of my words .

 

 

You said a real Christian doesn't enjoy sinning, and I was able to figure out what you really meant?  I had to translate what you said to what you meant?  If you can be unclear in a case like that, you might want to consider you are being unclear in other areas too?  You spoke of my reading comprehension skills?  You might want to consider your writing skills, when you tell us a Christian doesn't enjoy sinning, when what you really meant was they get convicted when they sin? 

 

Your posts might be easier to read if you didn't end  sentences with a question mark that are not questions.    I said that real Christians don't live in sin and enjoy it.  Genuine Christians feel remorse when they commit a sin.  A person who can live in sin and enjoy it and still call themselves a Christian is either lying or delusional.

 

Christians don't enjoy living in sin for a variety of reasons.  They are under conviction, but they also lose a lot in the way of peace and joy, Christian fellowship, their lives become empty, they become frustrated trying to fill their lives with nothing that can bring them permanent satisfaction and fulfillment.

 

 

That is not the same thing.  Professing Christians have been known to carry on affairs, and I would imagine they enjoyed it, which is why they did it?  You were not clear, and if you are going to make a blanket statement everyone else understood you, I would challenge you to prove it. 

 

The fact that so far, no one has come on here to demand I clarify anything is evidence that either they don't care or they get it.  But no one else appears to be as confused as you. 

 

The confusion stems from your constant misrepresentation of what I said.

[Guest Butero]

Well, actually, yes it does most certainly appear to be true.  The fact that you keep insisting that I think Christians have freedom to sin, even though I have corrected you on this

matter consistently, with patience and perserverance from thread to thread, indicates to me that you do not understand what I post from Scripture.  

 

This thread is about the grace of God and you keep insisting that you want everyone to explain to you what we should do about those who say they are Christians but are

not Christians.  

 

Apart from the fact that I am not the judge of anyone elses's heart and apart from the fact that God is able to save each one who belongs to Him to the

uttermost,  yes, apart from those facts, you have constantly gone off topic and yet we all have shown grace and tried to swing the thread back in the direction it started from.

 

Yes, Butero.  You most certainly and alarmingly do have a different understanding than most who have responded to this op.  Which, I might add, is why it has gone in circles

since practically the point of its inception.

 

Further, if someone calls you on something you have stated, you then make an attempt to state they did not understand you.  This, I find kind of grievous as it indicates further

misunderstanding and lack of communication that really, is an injustice to those of us who have labored with you throughout this thread and many other threads as well; the content

of which will in some way shape or form, seek to consider God's grace.  

 

It is my experience that you make little effort to acknowledge that absolutely no one has ever said we are free to sin yet you say that we say this over and over and  over and over.

 

This is a loose/loose situation.  I would really hope you might take the time to try and understand what others have written to you without accusing them of being rude or what have you.

 

This may have worked for you in the past...you may have upset me or others with your insistence that we think God's grace means keeps on sinning, however, after prayer and reflection,

I have come to understand that patience is indeed a virtue here and who knows, you may yet acknowledge what we have tried repeatedly to help you understand.

 

There is really nothing left here to say.  I pray God would open your eyes to understanding according to His word and I pray that you would come to acknowledge that none of us,

absolutely not one single one of us, has ever said or implied that is it fine to continue in sin.

 

God bless.  That's it for me in this thread.l

There is only a handful of people posting in this thread.  That is hardly indicative of Christianity as a whole, and I can tell you that there are a large number of Christians that don't hold the opinion that the majority in this thread do when it comes to grace.  I know that all the Denominations that are based on Wesley's doctrine don't agree with you, and that includes the Wesleyan Church, the Methodist Church and the Pentecostal Holiness Church, among others.  The sample is too small here to draw any conclusions. 

 

You stated that our salvation is not effected by behavior.  You are not alone in making that comment.  I am going to ask you point blank this time, do you believe that a person can lose their salvation based on behavior?  You are upset because I said that your doctrine means a Christian has freedom to sin.  If they can't lose their salvation based on behavior, that means they are free to sin.  I never said you advocated they should sin, but I only said they can sin with no fear of their soul.  We can resolve this rather quickly if you will just answer one question and I have been awful patient with you too, cause you don't answer direct questions. 

 

If a Christian continues to commit the sins spoken of in 1 Corinthians 6;9,10 and they don't confess them or repent of them, will they inherit the Kingdom of Heaven? 

 

If you would just answer that question, we could move on.  I would know exactly where you stand, but I am not holding my breath you will answer it, because up to now, you have just refused to answer direct questions like that and gone off in other directions.  You want me to stop accusing you of saying we can sin?  You want to move on and get back to the original intent of the OP?  Answer my question directly.  It is that simple. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

It is very difficult to have a conversation with you because your comments are always insulting, which automatically causes me to want to respond with insults.  Even so, I am going to do my best to give answers that don't violate the TOS. 

 

Stop playing the victim, Butero.  You were laughing at me and calling what I said, "stupid."  You drew first blood and I didn't respond in kind.

 

Your context argument ONLY addresses why the passage was written.  It doesn't have any bearing on the FACT that people that commit certain sins SHALL NOT inherit the Kingdom of heaven.  The context matters to the question of why the passage was written. 

 

 

 

Precisely, the problem is that you have to ignore that fact to use this as a prooftext for claiming that a Christian will lose their salvation for if they commit those sins.  You have to ignore the reason and insist on simply taking the text at face value to use it in the improper way you use it. You are using the text in a way that ignores the reason in order to apply it to the doctrine  of Salvation, even though Paul was not addressing the doctrine of salvation in that passage.  When people start taking passages and applying them to biblical doctrines that those passsages were not intending to address, it skews those doctrines. 

 

It is funny.  I have never looked at it as a waste of time trying to clarify something when another person didn't understand my meaning?  I would rather go out of my way to get them to understand my intent, than constantly insult them for not getting it the first time? 

 

What I said is that I have to stop and clarify over and over and over one post after another because you overstate and exaggerate my comments just so you can have something to knock down. And it gets really old.  You seem to have an unswerving ability to not comprehend simple concepts.

 

 

I don't believe everyone understood your meaning, and you can't prove such a statement. 

 

 

They did, and you don't see anyone else coming on here and demanding that I clarify my points.  In fact, in just about all of my interactions, I spend more time correcting your misrepresentations of my words .

 

 

You said a real Christian doesn't enjoy sinning, and I was able to figure out what you really meant?  I had to translate what you said to what you meant?  If you can be unclear in a case like that, you might want to consider you are being unclear in other areas too?  You spoke of my reading comprehension skills?  You might want to consider your writing skills, when you tell us a Christian doesn't enjoy sinning, when what you really meant was they get convicted when they sin? 

 

Your posts might be easier to read if you didn't end  sentences with a question mark that are not questions.    I said that real Christians don't live in sin and enjoy it.  Genuine Christians feel remorse when they commit a sin.  A person who can live in sin and enjoy it and still call themselves a Christian is either lying or delusional.

 

Christians don't enjoy living in sin for a variety of reasons.  They are under conviction, but they also lose a lot in the way of peace and joy, Christian fellowship, their lives become empty, they become frustrated trying to fill their lives with nothing that can bring them permanent satisfaction and fulfillment.

 

 

That is not the same thing.  Professing Christians have been known to carry on affairs, and I would imagine they enjoyed it, which is why they did it?  You were not clear, and if you are going to make a blanket statement everyone else understood you, I would challenge you to prove it. 

 

The fact that so far, no one has come on here to demand I clarify anything is evidence that either they don't care or they get it.  But no one else appears to be as confused as you. 

 

The confusion stems from your constant misrepresentation of what I said.

 

You had already insulted me in that post before I made any of those comments.  Your comment about if I couldn't understand what you said how could I be trusted with interpreting scripture was insulting, and if I need to, I will go through your comment point by point and show exactly what you said.  I am trying to move past insults and stay on topic.  Perhaps stupid was too strong of a word?  Not being able to understand what you or I say hardly shows whether or not we are capable of interpreting scripture?  That would be like someone posting a bunch of babble on here, and then saying if I can't understand it, I can't be trusted with understanding Paul.  I am not calling what you posted babble, but just making the point that something we write  can't be compared to scripture.  We are not that clear when we speak. 

 

Lets finish this right now.  I will ask you the same question I asked Sevenseas.

 

Can a Christian continue to commit the sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 without confessing them or repenting and inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, yes or no? 

 

I don't care about why the passage is there.  I don't care if real Christians would behave that way.  All I want is a direct yes or no answer.  If you can do that, we should be able to move on? 

[Sevenseas]

Well, even though I am not particiapting any longer, I thought of this thread and thought you might like to participate in it as it covers the subject you seem interested in.

This is not really a part of this thread, so, rather than put this thread off the rails yet again, I am providing you with a link to the thread that actually does consider what

appear to want to discuss.

 

[Guest Butero]

Well, even though I am not particiapting any longer, I thought of this thread and thought you might like to participate in it as it covers the subject you seem interested in.

This is not really a part of this thread, so, rather than put this thread off the rails yet again, I am providing you with a link to the thread that actually does consider what

appear to want to discuss.

 

Thank you SS, but since you made time to provide a link, you could make one exception with regard to this thread and answer the question I posed to you?  It would go a long way to resolving things, and we could return to the OP.

[Sevenseas]

All right then.  Here are your words to Shiloh

 

I don't care about why the passage is there.  I don't care if real Christians would behave that way.  All I want is a direct yes or no answer.  If you can do that, we should be able to move on? 

 

 

You don't really care.  The question has been answered multiple times and actually never needed to be asked.

 

As I already stated, this is a loose/loose situation.

 

It works like this I think:  If derailment is the goal, then what is the question and if an answer is provided to a question that is a derailment, then can that answer ever actually suffice?

 

Perhaps you might inform us why God's grace is actually insufficient in your viewpoint and why you believe that some sort of resolution is possible between two opposing messages;

one stating that God's grace is not something we earn and the other stating that we must earn continued salvation by how we dress.

 

I just demonstrated a little grace in answering you even though I have answered and others have answered your question repeatedly.

 

I am sure this topic will crop up again some time in a thread near you.  This paticular one, has used up all the oxygen in the room.

[Guest shiloh357]

You had already insulted me in that post before I made any of those comments.  Your comment about if I couldn't understand what you said how could I be trusted with interpreting scripture was insulting, and if I need to, I will go through your comment point by point and show exactly what you said

 

I know exactly what I said and I can also show how you mistate and in some cases exaggerate what I say in order to have something to knock down.  That is not an insult, despite your thin skin.  That is a accurate assessment of your comments and the way you debate.   You can't represent my comments honestly, so you have to have to extend my comments to unrealistic proportions and then criticize the results.   And because of that it does call into question your ability to properly handle something far more important, the Word of God.   You seem bent upon taking things to extremes especially where the Bible is concerned.

 

Not being able to understand what you or I say hardly shows whether or not we are capable of interpreting scripture? 

 

Is that a question?   We only use question marks at the end of questions, Butero.

 

But the fact is yes, if your inability to correctly frame my words, it stands to reason that you are not able to correctly frame the words of Scripture which are far greater and weightier.

Lets finish this right now.  I will ask you the same question I asked Sevenseas.

 

Can a Christian continue to commit the sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 without confessing them or repenting and inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, yes or no? 

 

But I have already answered the question.  An authentic Christian doesn't live in that manner. Paul is talking about people who live in and habitually practice those sins as a lifestyle.  An authentic Christian can't live in that manner, much less enjoy it. 

 

An authentic Christian cannot sin without remorse and repentance for their failure.

 

I don't care about why the passage is there. 

 

That is the problem.  You don't care why the passage is there.  But anyone who is competent to handle the text of Scripture cares very much why the passage is there.  Anyone who is interested in rightly dividng the Word of God would care why that passage is there.   Anyone who wants to study the Bible accurately would be keenly aware of why that passage is there and they would be very careful to handle it the way the author intends for it to be handled.

 

 

You don't care about accuracy or biblical soundness.

[GoldenEagle]

Closing this thread so other Servants can review it. As I'm involved in it I will refrain from moderation.