One Way Love: An Antidote to Legalism?

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

No worries though, since you can't fail.  The funny thing about all of this is that if someone is found to be in sin, people will just say they were never really saved, so all this so-called assurance of salvation is really not legitimate.  Take you for instance.  Lets say that right now you are following the Bible's teachings, but a year from now you turn back into sin.  If these teachings are true, it doesn't matter, but at the same time, that harms the teaching that those who are saved will live right, "because God first loves us."  Most would say you were never really saved.  Catch 22.  I honestly don't know how anyone can believe that kind of doctrine?  If you can't fail, you can't fail, so you could do anything you want.  You could go out and party every night, steal, commit adultery, even commit murder, and it wouldn't really matter.  Those things are all laws, yet the Bible says if you do those things you won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  As far as I am concerned, your motives don't matter.  If scripture says you can't get into heaven while in sin, that's what it means, so if you feel better about yourself saying you are motivations are different from mine, so be it.  The result of sin is still the same. 

 

First of all, I think we have entirely different understanding of what happens at the moment of salvation. Scripture has much to say about this, but at the same time, I don't think it is easily understood as to the full scope of what happens at the moment of salvation. Actually, that is the topic of this thread.  

 

Before salvation, a person is a sinner, has sinned, and also dead in their sin. Being in Adam means having died, and later physical death and finally the second death. Salvation is more then forgiveness or propitiation for sin. If Jesus died for our sins, and nothing more, then we are still in Adam, and still dead. So, now we have to look at what God did to make us 'in Christ'.

 

First and foremost, scripture says the old man is dead. He died on the cross.   

 

Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

What does it mean that the old man is dead. Simply, it means that we are not the same people we were prior to the moment of salvation. We are no longer sinners in Adam, but saints in Christ. Something in us died. We are now new creations.  Not only are we something new, The Holy Spirit and Jesus Spirit, now dwell in us.

 

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me

 

People who were dead and desired to do sins, now have changed. The old man is dead, and has been crucified with Christ, and have been made new creations, living by faith with Christ in them and them in Christ. A person who has undergone such a change does not desire to live in sin. So while we have freedom, the freedom to choose to sin or not sin, our desire is now different. A born again believer does not want to sin.  So 'You could go out and party every night, steal, commit adultery, even commit murder' but I don't want to.

 

So now, when I say, I love God because God first loved me, my love for God comes from the fact that I am a new creation. Because I love God, and have Christ living in me, and my life is thru Him by faith, I am not who I was before salvation. In the following verse, note the differentiation between a person who is a sinner, and a person who is now a saint. What happened? We were changed, from dead to alive to God, washed, sanctified, justified in the Spirit of God.

 

1 Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, ¹⁰ nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. ¹¹ Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

I understand the doctrine you are promoting, and I get the idea that a new creature in Christ doesn't want to sin.  The problem is, there are multitudes of people that go to the alter, pray a prayer, say they love Jesus and mean it, live right for a time, and fall away.  While they are living for Christ, they will claim they are secure, but when they fall away, people will say they were never really saved.  Knowing that this occurs, where is the real assurance?  Where is the real security?  What happens if you have a change of heart by and by? 

 

The topic has nothing to do with eternal security/OSAS. The topic has to do with how one lives the life of a believer. The assumption is that the person is saved.

 

Let's go back to the very beginning. A person is coming to the Lord, and in that process, they learn about Jesus, Who He is and what He did. They realize their need as a sinner. They confess their sins, believe on Jesus for salvation. Now, the next week, they sin. How do they know they have sinned? Because the Holy Spirit convicts them. Suppose the sin is anger. Now, as a believer, they do not want to sin.  What do they do?

 

I can think of 2 choices.

 

1. They repent to God and promise never to get angry again. When they fail again, they feel really bad, repent and determine not to do that again. When they fail again, they are really upset and depressed with themselves for failing again, but eventually pull themselves up by their boot straps and determine to try harder not to get angry. When they fail again, they are depressed a bit longer then before, might read some books on how to control anger, determine to try harder and do better. etc etc etc

 

2. They go to God and admit that they were wrong to be angry, but if they are to change, God needs to do the work and show them the way. They might thank Jesus for having died for their sins. Then rest in God knowing that He knows them better then they know themselves, and that God will do a work to conform them to the image of Jesus. They are children of the Most High, made Holy by God, and acceptable in His sight. Separated for God's purposes. We are new creations, sanctified, and being sanctified.        

 

Phil 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

In view of the Mosaic law, the majority of the physical is do-able. Saying this from a perspective of growing up in it, so it is part of normal everyday life. It is the inner thoughts and emotions which are most difficult. What is referred to as 'Yetzer Hara' or evil inclination in Judaism. Can the evil inclination be subdued? Must one constantly battle this inclination, and spend a life battling it. Is it inevitable that everyone will fail? 

 

Or can the evil inclination be overcome? That is the question. The evil inclination can not be overcome by strict adherence to the law. So, go back to what Jesus did on the cross. The old man is dead, and we are no longer bound to sin. Once we  become new creations, we are no longer sinners, but saints. Adherence to the law doesn't fix it. The change comes from God, Who works in us and thru us. Only God can get people off of the treadmill of try, fail, repent, pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and try harder. The renewing of the mind alters the way we think, and conforms us to the mind of Christ. It is Gods doing, with us cooperating.          

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

 

No worries though, since you can't fail.  The funny thing about all of this is that if someone is found to be in sin, people will just say they were never really saved, so all this so-called assurance of salvation is really not legitimate.  Take you for instance.  Lets say that right now you are following the Bible's teachings, but a year from now you turn back into sin.  If these teachings are true, it doesn't matter, but at the same time, that harms the teaching that those who are saved will live right, "because God first loves us."  Most would say you were never really saved.  Catch 22.  I honestly don't know how anyone can believe that kind of doctrine?  If you can't fail, you can't fail, so you could do anything you want.  You could go out and party every night, steal, commit adultery, even commit murder, and it wouldn't really matter.  Those things are all laws, yet the Bible says if you do those things you won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  As far as I am concerned, your motives don't matter.  If scripture says you can't get into heaven while in sin, that's what it means, so if you feel better about yourself saying you are motivations are different from mine, so be it.  The result of sin is still the same. 

 

First of all, I think we have entirely different understanding of what happens at the moment of salvation. Scripture has much to say about this, but at the same time, I don't think it is easily understood as to the full scope of what happens at the moment of salvation. Actually, that is the topic of this thread.  

 

Before salvation, a person is a sinner, has sinned, and also dead in their sin. Being in Adam means having died, and later physical death and finally the second death. Salvation is more then forgiveness or propitiation for sin. If Jesus died for our sins, and nothing more, then we are still in Adam, and still dead. So, now we have to look at what God did to make us 'in Christ'.

 

First and foremost, scripture says the old man is dead. He died on the cross.   

 

Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

What does it mean that the old man is dead. Simply, it means that we are not the same people we were prior to the moment of salvation. We are no longer sinners in Adam, but saints in Christ. Something in us died. We are now new creations.  Not only are we something new, The Holy Spirit and Jesus Spirit, now dwell in us.

 

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me

 

People who were dead and desired to do sins, now have changed. The old man is dead, and has been crucified with Christ, and have been made new creations, living by faith with Christ in them and them in Christ. A person who has undergone such a change does not desire to live in sin. So while we have freedom, the freedom to choose to sin or not sin, our desire is now different. A born again believer does not want to sin.  So 'You could go out and party every night, steal, commit adultery, even commit murder' but I don't want to.

 

So now, when I say, I love God because God first loved me, my love for God comes from the fact that I am a new creation. Because I love God, and have Christ living in me, and my life is thru Him by faith, I am not who I was before salvation. In the following verse, note the differentiation between a person who is a sinner, and a person who is now a saint. What happened? We were changed, from dead to alive to God, washed, sanctified, justified in the Spirit of God.

 

1 Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, ¹⁰ nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. ¹¹ Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

I understand the doctrine you are promoting, and I get the idea that a new creature in Christ doesn't want to sin.  The problem is, there are multitudes of people that go to the alter, pray a prayer, say they love Jesus and mean it, live right for a time, and fall away.  While they are living for Christ, they will claim they are secure, but when they fall away, people will say they were never really saved.  Knowing that this occurs, where is the real assurance?  Where is the real security?  What happens if you have a change of heart by and by? 

 

The topic has nothing to do with eternal security/OSAS. The topic has to do with how one lives the life of a believer. The assumption is that the person is saved.

 

Let's go back to the very beginning. A person is coming to the Lord, and in that process, they learn about Jesus, Who He is and what He did. They realize their need as a sinner. They confess their sins, believe on Jesus for salvation. Now, the next week, they sin. How do they know they have sinned? Because the Holy Spirit convicts them. Suppose the sin is anger. Now, as a believer, they do not want to sin.  What do they do?

 

I can think of 2 choices.

 

1. They repent to God and promise never to get angry again. When they fail again, they feel really bad, repent and determine not to do that again. When they fail again, they are really upset and depressed with themselves for failing again, but eventually pull themselves up by their boot straps and determine to try harder not to get angry. When they fail again, they are depressed a bit longer then before, might read some books on how to control anger, determine to try harder and do better. etc etc etc

 

2. They go to God and admit that they were wrong to be angry, but if they are to change, God needs to do the work and show them the way. They might thank Jesus for having died for their sins. Then rest in God knowing that He knows them better then they know themselves, and that God will do a work to conform them to the image of Jesus. They are children of the Most High, made Holy by God, and acceptable in His sight. Separated for God's purposes. We are new creations, sanctified, and being sanctified.        

 

Phil 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

In view of the Mosaic law, the majority of the physical is do-able. Saying this from a perspective of growing up in it, so it is part of normal everyday life. It is the inner thoughts and emotions which are most difficult. What is referred to as 'Yetzer Hara' or evil inclination in Judaism. Can the evil inclination be subdued? Must one constantly battle this inclination, and spend a life battling it. Is it inevitable that everyone will fail? 

 

Or can the evil inclination be overcome? That is the question. The evil inclination can not be overcome by strict adherence to the law. So, go back to what Jesus did on the cross. The old man is dead, and we are no longer bound to sin. Once we  become new creations, we are no longer sinners, but saints. Adherence to the law doesn't fix it. The change comes from God, Who works in us and thru us. Only God can get people off of the treadmill of try, fail, repent, pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and try harder. The renewing of the mind alters the way we think, and conforms us to the mind of Christ. It is Gods doing, with us cooperating.          

 

I get your point, but it still doesn't change the fact that we have a list of sins that will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of God, and those things are laws.  If you want to say it takes God's grace to give us the ability to live above those sins, I have no problem with that, at least in some cases like if you are bondage to something like drunkenness.  At the same time, the passage is absolute.  From a "legalistic" viewpoint, I get up and warn drunks they need to repent or go to hell, I am telling them the truth.  If they go to AA and remain sober, they are no longer a drunkard.  If they go to the Lord and are delivered, they are no longer a drunkard.  The result is the same.  If on the other hand, they remain a drunkard, they will wind up in hell.  Again, I just see this as terminology. 

 

You say I am not capable of keeping God's laws.  It depends.  There are some laws I have no problem keeping because I am not weak in those areas.  I have never cheated on my wife.  I have never killed anyone.  At the same time, there might be other laws where I am weaker, and do need grace.  Either way, I know I can't do certain things and remain saved, so if I abstain from them through willpower, because it comes naturally to me, or through deliverance, I still have to avoid certain sinful behaviors to make it to heaven. 

[alphaparticle]

 

 I think there are genuine believers who do pretty bad things. There's an example in 1 Cor 5

 

1 cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.

 

This sounds pretty bad.

 

1 cor 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

 

I think there are likely a couple different ways to view this, but it seems clear that the church won't tolerate his presence among them while he is engaging in this particular sin. Alright. Note, nowhere did Paul say he wasn't a believer (the intervening verses do not suggest this). But the second thing is Paul's admonishment to cash him out for 'the destruction of the flesh' and there is the *expectation* that he will be saved, despite engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife. He is punished in the flesh, sure, but still saved.

 

The thing about these passages is, Paul explicitly condemns and mourns the actions of this man. He nowhere minimizes the sinfulness or seriousness of this- but also nowhere does he say that "oh well I guess he's not really a believer". It's serious, it sounds like this person likely suffered terrible consequences, but it also sounds like he was saved.

But given the fact Paul says that adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, he has already condemned them to hell if they fail to repent.  I believe he is saying that by putting them out of the church, the hope is they will eventually return to the Lord and ultimately be saved.  I don't believe he is saying they will get to heaven while still in adultery, or he would have contradicted 1 Corinthians 6:9.

 

hbr 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

 

For all time, those who are *being* sanctified *are* perfected. If you are ever 'started' in the process of sanctification then it's a done deal according to this verse- "for all time". From this perspective 1 cor 6:

 

1 cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Once this is started it cannot be undone. God will finish you, according to Hebrews 10:14 it is in fact a done deal, done for all time.

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 I think there are genuine believers who do pretty bad things. There's an example in 1 Cor 5

 

1 cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.

 

This sounds pretty bad.

 

1 cor 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

 

I think there are likely a couple different ways to view this, but it seems clear that the church won't tolerate his presence among them while he is engaging in this particular sin. Alright. Note, nowhere did Paul say he wasn't a believer (the intervening verses do not suggest this). But the second thing is Paul's admonishment to cash him out for 'the destruction of the flesh' and there is the *expectation* that he will be saved, despite engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife. He is punished in the flesh, sure, but still saved.

 

The thing about these passages is, Paul explicitly condemns and mourns the actions of this man. He nowhere minimizes the sinfulness or seriousness of this- but also nowhere does he say that "oh well I guess he's not really a believer". It's serious, it sounds like this person likely suffered terrible consequences, but it also sounds like he was saved.

But given the fact Paul says that adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, he has already condemned them to hell if they fail to repent.  I believe he is saying that by putting them out of the church, the hope is they will eventually return to the Lord and ultimately be saved.  I don't believe he is saying they will get to heaven while still in adultery, or he would have contradicted 1 Corinthians 6:9.

 

hbr 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

 

For all time, those who are *being* sanctified *are* perfected. If you are ever 'started' in the process of sanctification then it's a done deal according to this verse- "for all time". From this perspective 1 cor 6:

 

1 cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Once this is started it cannot be undone. God will finish you, according to Hebrews 10:14 it is in fact a done deal, done for all time.

 

Then you come back full circle.  If he is speaking in past tense, Christians don't behave like this, so were the adulterers really saved? 

[Qnts2]

 

I get your point, but it still doesn't change the fact that we have a list of sins that will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of God, and those things are laws.  If you want to say it takes God's grace to give us the ability to live above those sins, I have no problem with that, at least in some cases like if you are bondage to something like drunkenness.  At the same time, the passage is absolute.  From a "legalistic" viewpoint, I get up and warn drunks they need to repent or go to hell, I am telling them the truth.  If they go to AA and remain sober, they are no longer a drunkard.  If they go to the Lord and are delivered, they are no longer a drunkard.  The result is the same.  If on the other hand, they remain a drunkard, they will wind up in hell.  Again, I just see this as terminology. 

 

You say I am not capable of keeping God's laws.  It depends.  There are some laws I have no problem keeping because I am not weak in those areas.  I have never cheated on my wife.  I have never killed anyone.  At the same time, there might be other laws where I am weaker, and do need grace.  Either way, I know I can't do certain things and remain saved, so if I abstain from them through willpower, because it comes naturally to me, or through deliverance, I still have to avoid certain sinful behaviors to make it to heaven. 

 

 

So, if I keep the Mosaic law, which of course prohibits being a drunkard, and prohibits adultery, etc. am I saved by keeping the law? Can a person be perfected by works of the flesh?

 

Gal 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; ¹⁶ nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. ¹⁷ But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! ¹⁸ For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. ¹⁹ For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. ²⁰ I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. ²¹ I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

The topic has nothing to do with eternal security/OSAS. The topic has to do with how one lives the life of a believer. The assumption is that the person is saved.

 

Let's go back to the very beginning. A person is coming to the Lord, and in that process, they learn about Jesus, Who He is and what He did. They realize their need as a sinner. They confess their sins, believe on Jesus for salvation. Now, the next week, they sin. How do they know they have sinned? Because the Holy Spirit convicts them. Suppose the sin is anger. Now, as a believer, they do not want to sin.  What do they do?

 

I can think of 2 choices.

 

1. They repent to God and promise never to get angry again. When they fail again, they feel really bad, repent and determine not to do that again. When they fail again, they are really upset and depressed with themselves for failing again, but eventually pull themselves up by their boot straps and determine to try harder not to get angry. When they fail again, they are depressed a bit longer then before, might read some books on how to control anger, determine to try harder and do better. etc etc etc

 

2. They go to God and admit that they were wrong to be angry, but if they are to change, God needs to do the work and show them the way. They might thank Jesus for having died for their sins. Then rest in God knowing that He knows them better then they know themselves, and that God will do a work to conform them to the image of Jesus. They are children of the Most High, made Holy by God, and acceptable in His sight. Separated for God's purposes. We are new creations, sanctified, and being sanctified.        

 

Phil 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

In view of the Mosaic law, the majority of the physical is do-able. Saying this from a perspective of growing up in it, so it is part of normal everyday life. It is the inner thoughts and emotions which are most difficult. What is referred to as 'Yetzer Hara' or evil inclination in Judaism. Can the evil inclination be subdued? Must one constantly battle this inclination, and spend a life battling it. Is it inevitable that everyone will fail? 

 

Or can the evil inclination be overcome? That is the question. The evil inclination can not be overcome by strict adherence to the law. So, go back to what Jesus did on the cross. The old man is dead, and we are no longer bound to sin. Once we  become new creations, we are no longer sinners, but saints. Adherence to the law doesn't fix it. The change comes from God, Who works in us and thru us. Only God can get people off of the treadmill of try, fail, repent, pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and try harder. The renewing of the mind alters the way we think, and conforms us to the mind of Christ. It is Gods doing, with us cooperating.          

 

I get your point, but it still doesn't change the fact that we have a list of sins that will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of God, and those things are laws.  If you want to say it takes God's grace to give us the ability to live above those sins, I have no problem with that, at least in some cases like if you are bondage to something like drunkenness.  At the same time, the passage is absolute.  From a "legalistic" viewpoint, I get up and warn drunks they need to repent or go to hell, I am telling them the truth.  If they go to AA and remain sober, they are no longer a drunkard.  If they go to the Lord and are delivered, they are no longer a drunkard.  The result is the same.  If on the other hand, they remain a drunkard, they will wind up in hell.  Again, I just see this as terminology. 

 

You say I am not capable of keeping God's laws.  It depends.  There are some laws I have no problem keeping because I am not weak in those areas.  I have never cheated on my wife.  I have never killed anyone.  At the same time, there might be other laws where I am weaker, and do need grace.  Either way, I know I can't do certain things and remain saved, so if I abstain from them through willpower, because it comes naturally to me, or through deliverance, I still have to avoid certain sinful behaviors to make it to heaven. 

 

 

So, if I keep the Mosaic law, which of course prohibits being a drunkard, and prohibits adultery, etc. am I saved by keeping the law? Can a person be perfected by works of the flesh?

 

Gal 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; ¹⁶ nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. ¹⁷ But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! ¹⁸ For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. ¹⁹ For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. ²⁰ I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. ²¹ I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

 

Choosing to keep the law of Moses won't save you because you can't fully keep it.  The other reason is original sin.  We all need grace.  We all have sinful thoughts or bad attitudes from time to time.  You are saved by grace, but you can't continue in sin that grace will abound.  The passage in 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 makes it clear that if you continue in sinful behavior, you shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.  Of course, there is a difference in sins mentioned here, which are clearly sins unto death, and unintentional sins we may not even realize we have done until the Spirit reveals them to us.

[Guest shiloh357]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Co 6:9-10

 

This passage has been used alot in this thread but it has been torn from its immediate and literary context to reference an issue that Paul wasn't addressing.

 

Starting up at verse one which begins the context, Paul is addressing a problem with the Christians at the Corinthian church taking their internal disptutes and having them decided before secular magistrates.   Paul in verses 1-8 exhorts the believers at Corinth not to take one another to court but to settle their disputes in-house. 

 

Paul's ground and basis for this is the fact that the gross immorality of the city of Corinth had infected everyone right up to those who governed the city.  Corinth was considered the most immoral city in the world at that time.    Paul's point is that you, who will one day judge angels are taking your disputes before people who will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

Paul is not warning the Corinthians as if they were themselves committing these sins, but he is exhorting them that fornicators,  idolaters, adulterers,effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners will inherit the Kingdom of God and therefore, they have no business ruling and passing judgment in the affairs of the church.

 

Paul is not warning them that if they participate in these sins, they will lose their salvation.  In verse 11, he obviously assumes they are not living in that manner.  He says, "you used to live that way, but now you have been washed, justified and sanctified."  HIs point is that they should not be bringing a reproach upon Christ by airing their dirty laundry in front of the heathen.

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

 I think there are genuine believers who do pretty bad things. There's an example in 1 Cor 5

 

1 cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.

 

This sounds pretty bad.

 

1 cor 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

 

I think there are likely a couple different ways to view this, but it seems clear that the church won't tolerate his presence among them while he is engaging in this particular sin. Alright. Note, nowhere did Paul say he wasn't a believer (the intervening verses do not suggest this). But the second thing is Paul's admonishment to cash him out for 'the destruction of the flesh' and there is the *expectation* that he will be saved, despite engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife. He is punished in the flesh, sure, but still saved.

 

The thing about these passages is, Paul explicitly condemns and mourns the actions of this man. He nowhere minimizes the sinfulness or seriousness of this- but also nowhere does he say that "oh well I guess he's not really a believer". It's serious, it sounds like this person likely suffered terrible consequences, but it also sounds like he was saved.

But given the fact Paul says that adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, he has already condemned them to hell if they fail to repent.  I believe he is saying that by putting them out of the church, the hope is they will eventually return to the Lord and ultimately be saved.  I don't believe he is saying they will get to heaven while still in adultery, or he would have contradicted 1 Corinthians 6:9.

 

hbr 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

 

For all time, those who are *being* sanctified *are* perfected. If you are ever 'started' in the process of sanctification then it's a done deal according to this verse- "for all time". From this perspective 1 cor 6:

 

1 cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Once this is started it cannot be undone. God will finish you, according to Hebrews 10:14 it is in fact a done deal, done for all time.

 

Then you come back full circle.  If he is speaking in past tense, Christians don't behave like this, so were the adulterers really saved? 

 

Yes. Look at hebrews 10:14 again. Who are are *being* sanctified- present- have already been perfected ("had perfected for all time"). Sanctification I gather then is a process "being" done, which if it is being done, is also completed to God.

[Sevenseas]

 

 

 Qtns2So now, when I say, I love God because God first loved me, my love for God comes from the fact that I am a new creation. Because I love God, and have Christ living in me, and my life is thru Him by faith, I am not who I was before salvation. In the following verse, note the differentiation between a person who is a sinner, and a person who is now a saint. What happened? We were changed, from dead to alive to God, washed, sanctified, justified in the Spirit of God.

 

1 Cor 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, ¹⁰ nor thieves, nor thecovetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. ¹¹ Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

 

 

A great post Qt!  For me, it makes me think of this verse:

 

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.  Acts 17:28

 

God initiates, does the work and completes it and all IN Christ our Savior...as Christ said:  I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.  John 15:1

 

That Christ is the TRUE vine, indicates that a person can become attached to and grow in error rather than truth.  There is just so much...it is exhaustive!

 

But what of the professing Christian that does those things?  Lets say you have a guy who prays a prayer at the alter and accepts Jesus, but he remains effeminate.  Everyone keeps pointing to "and such were some of you," indicating things should have changed in the believer's life.  What of the people who experienced no change?  What of the person who initially does change but falls away? 

 

 

 

I don't write down people's names in the Lamb's Book of Life.  That is God's business.  Niether God nor I are in the business of conjecture and suppositions.  God deals in reality;

not what ifs and I am postive He has all sides of reality covered...whether or not we understand what He says in His word.

 

It appears you may actually have an arguement with scripture.  If your perception is that 'everyone' (not everyone really; just the responders on this thread so to state everyone, is a bit

of a misleading statement IMO) agrees that a portion of scripture indicates the premise of this thread to be true, then you possibly do not understand that verse or have your own

interpretation which is markedly different than the perceived everyone you say you are quoting.

[Guest Butero]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Co 6:9-10

 

This passage has been used alot in this thread but it has been torn from its immediate and literary context to reference an issue that Paul wasn't addressing.

 

Starting up at verse one which begins the context, Paul is addressing a problem with the Christians at the Corinthian church taking their internal disptutes and having them decided before secular magistrates.   Paul in verses 1-8 exhorts the believers at Corinth not to take one another to court but to settle their disputes in-house. 

 

Paul's ground and basis for this is the fact that the gross immorality of the city of Corinth had infected everyone right up to those who governed the city.  Corinth was considered the most immoral city in the world at that time.    Paul's point is that you, who will one day judge angels are taking your disputes before people who will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

Paul is not warning the Corinthians as if they were themselves committing these sins, but he is exhorting them that fornicators,  idolaters, adulterers,effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners will inherit the Kingdom of God and therefore, they have no business ruling and passing judgment in the affairs of the church.

 

Paul is not warning them that if they participate in these sins, they will lose their salvation.  In verse 11, he obviously assumes they are not living in that manner.  He says, "you used to live that way, but now you have been washed, justified and sanctified."  HIs point is that they should not be bringing a reproach upon Christ by airing their dirty laundry in front of the heathen.

It doesn't matter Shiloh.  He still says that people that do those things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.  Even if his intent was not a warning, he still made this point clear.