One Way Love: An Antidote to Legalism?

[Guest Butero]

We have someone in our church who apparantly has been stopping women at the door and informing them that they are not dressed appropriately. Well, it is true that some have been wearing skinny jeans and tights with waist length blouses that are pretty eye catching. Our pastor announced from the pulpit that people who criticise peoples appearance are not doing him any favors. A second time he announced that it is the Holy Spirit's job to teach people about appropriate appearance and we need to trust Him to do so. A third time he mentioned modesty and not dressing to call attention to ourselves because it was a part of our study of 1 Peter. We have some German Baptist who wear their traditional attire and he named this, but avoided mentioning tights or revealing clothing, leaving that to the Lord. (Fortunately we don't have guys wearing their pants below their groin. But it is funny to watch them try to run, hanging on to their pants.) Pastor's remarks were made over about 18 months time. It is best not to major on minors.

Our church does not have a dress policy, but we are encouraged to dress so as to not call attention to ourselves so that our attention can be focussed on God. This is written in a tome that is required that pastors read and is available in our book store or on line, but is not widely discussed or promoted. So when we see someone over dressed (three piece suit or in a stylish, expensive dress, 5" heals, lots of bling and and heavy make up), we assume that they are new to the church or are not saved. In such case we need to welcome them warmly. Most come back dressed more casually; but we do have a half dozen who continue to dress immodestly. In this case most of us assume that they may not be saved yet and we are thankful they came. They need even more godly love. Jesus welcomed sinners and so should we. We pray for them to open their hearts to hear God's call when we see them and we look on them with compassion, because they must be very hungry for attention and love. God can fill that void. Man looks at outward appearance but God looks at the heart. We try to see them as God does and He sees their need.

It is not good to play god and try to change others. Believe me, when I was first married I tried to change hubby and it didn't help. In fact it took more time to undo the harm I had done. He just saw criticism as rejection, no matter how constructive it was meant. So I thought I had married a Christian but he was an unbeliever. I was stupid.

We also must leave the job of changing new Christians to the Holy Spirit. We need to understand that God has His own priorities in changing us into the likeness of Christ. He usually starts with unseen issues of the heart like repentance, reading the Bible, hatred, unforgiveness, Godly love, and forming the fruit of the Spirit in us. The outward things start to change as the inward sins and needs are dealt with. It is best to let God do His job His way.

I want to focus on the part that I placed in bold.  You by your own admission have admitted making judgments about visitors based on their clothes, but you just believe you shouldn't say anything.  I would be the one with the suit and tie, and I wouldn't change because others didn't dress that way, no matter how long I went to a particular church.  I do that out of respect for the house of God.  It is not a common place, but a church.  All you are describing is how different people look at how people dress, and giving your personal opinion as to how you think they should deal with it. 

 

Since you did give your opinion of how people should deal with it, I will too.  I would use tracts to promote proper dress.  They would be in the front of the church for anyone to look at.  I had one by Dr. Hal Webb, a Baptist minister that addressed women in pants, for instance.  I would on occasion preach about appropriate clothing, based on my standards.  I find it interesting your Pastor will preach on clothing based on his standards?  He is clothes line?  That surprises me.  I am finding people all over the board when it comes to what they believe is right and wrong when it comes to clothing, but my point is, nearly everyone has some standards when it comes to clothes.

[Willa]

But

It is best not to major on minors.

Our church does not have a dress policy, but we are encouraged to DRESS SO AS NOT TO CALL ATTENTION TO OURSELVES so that OUR ATTENTION CAN BE FOCUSED ON GOD. So when we see someone over dressed (three piece suit or in a stylish, expensive dress, 5" heals, lots of bling and and heavy make up), we assume that they are new to the church or are not saved. In such case we need to welcome them warmly.

[There is a psychological tendancy to want to comform, which may account for most people returning dressed more casually. It does make it easier to recognize visitors. But it is human nature to stare at people in suits and ties if only one or two from among a thousand are so dressed. Usually we learn that one or two men dressed in suits are mormons. In the 50s women wore hats and gloves and tried to wear expensive and stylish clothes. It led to preference being given to those who were dressed the best, which is ungodly. Everyone was looking at someones new dress and some envied them. It became more of a style show where women were trying to out dress each other. No one was desiring to please God or honor Him. And the God dwells in His children, not a building.

I remember a woman in the 70s who came in off the street wearing flip flops and capris. She went to the alter that day and gave her life to the Lord. Meeting her at the door with a dress code would have cost her salvation. She was very poor and had many growing children to support. So the godly older women came back the next sunday wearing pants suits so make the new Christian feel more welcome and comfortable. It was the loving thing to do. No one criticised her. In the 80s when we visited another church a woman walked over to me and sat down. Instead of welcoming me she made a remark about my dress being out of fashion by a couple of years. I later learned she was a deaconess and wealthy. We were not able to afford new clothes for ourselves. But then, ISN'T IT WORLDLY FOR US TO BE OVERLY CONCERNED ABOUT CLOTHING AND NOT TO BE MORE CONCERNED AS TO THE CONDITION OF A PERSONS SOUL?. ISN'T IT WORLDLY FOR OUR ATTENTION TO BE DIRECTED TOWARD OUTDRESSING EACH OTHER AND FOCUSED ON OUTWARD APPEARANCES. ALL PEOPLE SHOULD BE WELCOME AS THEY ARE OR WE RISK BECOMING A STUMBLING BLOCK TO THEIR SALVATION OR GROWTH. Wouldn't it be better to hand out tracts that welcome people and explain the way of salvation, and then to pray for them?.]

Most come back dressed more casually; but we do have a half dozen who continue to dress immodestly. In this case most of us assume [i SHOULD SAY SUSPECT, SORRY] that they may not be saved yet and we are thankful they came. They need even more godly love. Jesus welcomed sinners and so should we. We pray for them to open their hearts to hear God's call when we see them and we look on them with compassion, because they must be very hungry for attention and love. God can fill that void. MAN LOOKS AT THE OUTWARD APPEARANCE BUT GOD LOOKS AT THE HEART.. We try to see them as God does and He sees their need.

It is not good to play god and try to change others. Believe me, when I was first married I tried to change hubby and it didn't help. In fact it took more time to undo the harm I had done. He just saw criticism as rejection, no matter how constructive it was meant. So I thought I had married a Christian but he was an unbeliever. I was stupid.

We also must leave the job of changing new Christians to the Holy Spirit. We need to understand that God has His own priorities in changing us into the likeness of Christ. He usually starts with unseen issues of the heart like repentance, reading the Bible, hatred, unforgiveness, Godly love, and forming the fruit of the Spirit in us. The outward things start to change as the inward sins and needs are dealt with. It is best to let God do His job His way.

I want to focus on the part that I placed in bold.  You by your own admission have admitted making judgments about visitors based on their clothes,[ yes, that they are new or that they may not be saved] but you just believe you shouldn't say anything.  I would be the one with the suit and tie, and I wouldn't change because others didn't dress that way, no matter how long I went to a particular church. [that's OK, God loves people in suits and ties, too.] I do that out of respect for the house of God.  It is not a common place, but a church.  [people constitute the Church, not a building] All you are describing is how different people look at how people dress, and giving your personal opinion as to how you think they should deal with it. 

 

Since you did give your opinion of how people should deal with it, I will too.  I would use tracts to promote proper dress.  They would be in the front of the church for anyone to look at.  I had one by Dr. Hal Webb, a Baptist minister that addressed women in pants, for instance.  I would on occasion preach about appropriate clothing, based on my standards.  I find it interesting your Pastor will preach on clothing based on his standards?  He is clothes line? [Here you are wrong]  That surprises me.  I am finding people all over the board when it comes to what they believe is right and wrong when it comes to clothing, but my point is, nearly everyone has some standards when it comes to clothes.

OUR PASTOR, WHILE COVERING THE BOOK OF 1 PETER, READ CHAP 3 AND CROSS REFERENCED 1 TIMOTHY 2:9, THAT THE WOMEN ADORN THEMSELVES IN MODEST APPAREL, WITH PROPRIETY AND MODERATION. THESE ARE THE STANDARDS FOUND IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AND ARE NOT HIS OWN as HE JUST READ THEM. THE POINT IS THAT OUR ATTENTION SHOULD BE DIRECTED TOWARD GOD AND NOT FOCUSED ON PEOPLE OR HOW THEY ARE DRESSED. THE HIDDEN BEAUTY OF THE HEART IS WHAT GOD SEES AND it is HOW WE CAN HONOR THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. A church is only a building; its members who are born of the Spirit are the temple that God indwells.

God does not focus on outward appearances. Nor should we.

Butero, as much as I respect you, I fear I would be made to feel unwelcome in your church. Not having money to meet your churches standard of dress and shoes, you may even turn me away or ask me not to come back. I am so thankful that Jesus does not do that and that He welcomes me as I am.

Blessing to you, brother,

Willa

[Guest shiloh357]

 

I understand his context argument, but the problem is that it still doesn't change the fact the Bible says in absolute terms that people that commit these sins will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and it says these are things people used to do before being saved. 

 

 

Yes, but it is not talking about Christians committing these sins.  You are trying draw out of the text something that the text doesn't say.  You are still bent on applying the text to an issue that it wasn't meant to address.     

 

You are applying the text to salvation, and the text is not addressing salvation, so to make it a salvation-related text is an error on your part. 

 

Even if Shiloh is right about the context, all it does is show the intent for why the comments were made.  In other words, the purpose wasn't to scare people about behavior.  Fine, but it still does nothing to change the absolute comment that people that commit these sins won't make it to heaven. 

 

That context proves that you are misapplying the text.  You are trying to use I Cor. 6:9 as a stand alone proof text about losing salvation, when that was NOT what Paul was trying to address, not even close.    You have no right in terms of the intent and meaning the author was attempting to convey to make the text a salvation issue.  There are ways to defend your point of view without getting to the point of, "I don't care what Paul meant, I am going to use the text the way I want."

[Guest shiloh357]

 

The thing about clothing is, people will claim it is wrong to be clothes line, but everyone is clothes line to some extent.  As you said, few would think a man dressing like Boy George is ok, and few would say it is ok for a woman to be on the beach topless.  By saying it is wrong, that is clothes line, even though, the Bible doesn't specifically mention a woman going topless as not decent, or a man wearing a dress as violating Deuteronomy 22:5.  We just recognize it is wrong. 

 

 

 

I guess I am not familiar with this application of the phrase, "clothes line."

If you tell someone they can't do something based on the law, you are being legalistic.  The argument by the not under law crowd is we are living under grace and not under the law.  Things like adultery, theft, murder, etc. are all based on the law of Moses.  If we are truly not under the law, you could do anything and be ok.  You could be committing the sins the people in Corinth were doing, where Paul turned them over to Satan. 

 

"Under the law" and "under grace," refer to our standing before God.   When the Bible says we are not "under the law"  it doesn't mean that we are not living within the framework of the law."  Rather it refers to the spiritual condition of the unsaved person.  A person without Christ stands before God, "under the law."   A person who is saved stands before God, "under grace."

 

God's law has not been abrogated.  If anything, it has been augmented due the empowering of Holy Spirit to enable to keep God's commandments.

[Guest Butero]

But

 

It is best not to major on minors.

Our church does not have a dress policy, but we are encouraged to DRESS SO AS NOT TO CALL ATTENTION TO OURSELVES so that OUR ATTENTION CAN BE FOCUSED ON GOD. So when we see someone over dressed (three piece suit or in a stylish, expensive dress, 5" heals, lots of bling and and heavy make up), we assume that they are new to the church or are not saved. In such case we need to welcome them warmly.

[There is a psychological tendancy to want to comform, which may account for most people returning dressed more casually. It does make it easier to recognize visitors. But it is human nature to stare at people in suits and ties if only one or two from among a thousand are so dressed. Usually we learn that one or two men dressed in suits are mormons. In the 50s women wore hats and gloves and tried to wear expensive and stylish clothes. It led to preference being given to those who were dressed the best, which is ungodly. Everyone was looking at someones new dress and some envied them. It became more of a style show where women were trying to out dress each other. No one was desiring to please God or honor Him. And the God dwells in His children, not a building.

I remember a woman in the 70s who came in off the street wearing flip flops and capris. She went to the alter that day and gave her life to the Lord. Meeting her at the door with a dress code would have cost her salvation. She was very poor and had many growing children to support. So the godly older women came back the next sunday wearing pants suits so make the new Christian feel more welcome and comfortable. It was the loving thing to do. No one criticised her. In the 80s when we visited another church a woman walked over to me and sat down. Instead of welcoming me she made a remark about my dress being out of fashion by a couple of years. I later learned she was a deaconess and wealthy. We were not able to afford new clothes for ourselves. But then, ISN'T IT WORLDLY FOR US TO BE OVERLY CONCERNED ABOUT CLOTHING AND NOT TO BE MORE CONCERNED AS TO THE CONDITION OF A PERSONS SOUL?. ISN'T IT WORLDLY FOR OUR ATTENTION TO BE DIRECTED TOWARD OUTDRESSING EACH OTHER AND FOCUSED ON OUTWARD APPEARANCES. ALL PEOPLE SHOULD BE WELCOME AS THEY ARE OR WE RISK BECOMING A STUMBLING BLOCK TO THEIR SALVATION OR GROWTH. Wouldn't it be better to hand out tracts that welcome people and explain the way of salvation, and then to pray for them?.]

Most come back dressed more casually; but we do have a half dozen who continue to dress immodestly. In this case most of us assume [i SHOULD SAY SUSPECT, SORRY] that they may not be saved yet and we are thankful they came. They need even more godly love. Jesus welcomed sinners and so should we. We pray for them to open their hearts to hear God's call when we see them and we look on them with compassion, because they must be very hungry for attention and love. God can fill that void. MAN LOOKS AT THE OUTWARD APPEARANCE BUT GOD LOOKS AT THE HEART.. We try to see them as God does and He sees their need.

It is not good to play god and try to change others. Believe me, when I was first married I tried to change hubby and it didn't help. In fact it took more time to undo the harm I had done. He just saw criticism as rejection, no matter how constructive it was meant. So I thought I had married a Christian but he was an unbeliever. I was stupid.

We also must leave the job of changing new Christians to the Holy Spirit. We need to understand that God has His own priorities in changing us into the likeness of Christ. He usually starts with unseen issues of the heart like repentance, reading the Bible, hatred, unforgiveness, Godly love, and forming the fruit of the Spirit in us. The outward things start to change as the inward sins and needs are dealt with. It is best to let God do His job His way.

 

I want to focus on the part that I placed in bold.  You by your own admission have admitted making judgments about visitors based on their clothes,[ yes, that they are new or that they may not be saved] but you just believe you shouldn't say anything.  I would be the one with the suit and tie, and I wouldn't change because others didn't dress that way, no matter how long I went to a particular church. [that's OK, God loves people in suits and ties, too.] I do that out of respect for the house of God.  It is not a common place, but a church.  [people constitute the Church, not a building] All you are describing is how different people look at how people dress, and giving your personal opinion as to how you think they should deal with it. 

 

Since you did give your opinion of how people should deal with it, I will too.  I would use tracts to promote proper dress.  They would be in the front of the church for anyone to look at.  I had one by Dr. Hal Webb, a Baptist minister that addressed women in pants, for instance.  I would on occasion preach about appropriate clothing, based on my standards.  I find it interesting your Pastor will preach on clothing based on his standards?  He is clothes line? [Here you are wrong]  That surprises me.  I am finding people all over the board when it comes to what they believe is right and wrong when it comes to clothing, but my point is, nearly everyone has some standards when it comes to clothes.

OUR PASTOR, WHILE COVERING THE BOOK OF 1 PETER, READ CHAP 3 AND CROSS REFERENCED 1 TIMOTHY 2:9, THAT THE WOMEN ADORN THEMSELVES IN MODEST APPAREL, WITH PROPRIETY AND MODERATION. THESE ARE THE STANDARDS FOUND IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AND ARE NOT HIS OWN as HE JUST READ THEM. THE POINT IS THAT OUR ATTENTION SHOULD BE DIRECTED TOWARD GOD AND NOT FOCUSED ON PEOPLE OR HOW THEY ARE DRESSED. THE HIDDEN BEAUTY OF THE HEART IS WHAT GOD SEES AND it is HOW WE CAN HONOR THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. A church is only a building; its members who are born of the Spirit are the temple that God indwells.

God does not focus on outward appearances. Nor should we.

Butero, as much as I respect you, I fear I would be made to feel unwelcome in your church. Not having money to meet your churches standard of dress and shoes, you may even turn me away or ask me not to come back. I am so thankful that Jesus does not do that and that He welcomes me as I am.

Blessing to you, brother,

Willa

 

I would fear I would be made to feel unwelcomed at your church because I would choose to wear a suit and tie out of respect for the house of God?  I have never turned anyone away because they were poor and couldn't afford fancy clothes.  In the cases where there might be a woman show up that didn't have a dress and couldn't afford one, I would offer to buy them one to wear to church.  Apparently, Jesus might welcome you as you are, but by your own admission, there are people that came to your church and were told they weren't dressed like they should be.  You also have a Pastor that preached on clothing.  Perhaps you should let women know they shouldn't wear expensive dresses and 5 inch heels?  I don't get the issue with the heels, or the expensive clothes, but to each his own?  Maybe you need to find a new church?

[Guest Butero]

 

 

The thing about clothing is, people will claim it is wrong to be clothes line, but everyone is clothes line to some extent.  As you said, few would think a man dressing like Boy George is ok, and few would say it is ok for a woman to be on the beach topless.  By saying it is wrong, that is clothes line, even though, the Bible doesn't specifically mention a woman going topless as not decent, or a man wearing a dress as violating Deuteronomy 22:5.  We just recognize it is wrong. 

 

 

 

I guess I am not familiar with this application of the phrase, "clothes line."

If you tell someone they can't do something based on the law, you are being legalistic.  The argument by the not under law crowd is we are living under grace and not under the law.  Things like adultery, theft, murder, etc. are all based on the law of Moses.  If we are truly not under the law, you could do anything and be ok.  You could be committing the sins the people in Corinth were doing, where Paul turned them over to Satan. 

"Under the law" and "under grace," refer to our standing before God.   When the Bible says we are not "under the law"  it doesn't mean that we are not living within the framework of the law."  Rather it refers to the spiritual condition of the unsaved person.  A person without Christ stands before God, "under the law."   A person who is saved stands before God, "under grace."

 

God's law has not been abrogated.  If anything, it has been augmented due the empowering of Holy Spirit to enable to keep God's commandments.

 

 

To your first point, most people like to limit the phrase "clothes line" in cases they agree with, and I am making the point that clothes line would mean to preach on anything a person wears, even if their is a large consensus it is wrong.

 

To your second point, fair enough. 

[Sevenseas]

G R A C E...the UNMERITED favor of God.

 

Anything else, is just a person trying to outdo what God has already done.

 

Any references to me stating that I think it is ok to keep sinning are simply an attempt to put out a false red flag.  

 

G R A C E.  Some people understand it and some people just cannot seem to accept the fact that we can never meet God's standards of holiness which is why Christ died for us.

[Guest Butero]

G R A C E...the UNMERITED favor of God.

 

Anything else, is just a person trying to outdo what God has already done.

 

Any references to me stating that I think it is ok to keep sinning are simply an attempt to put out a false red flag.  

 

G R A C E.  Some people understand it and some people just cannot seem to accept the fact that we can never meet God's standards of holiness which is why Christ died for us.

Hello Sevenseas.  Good to see you made it back.  I don't think it is a question of saying it is ok to keep sinning?  The question is whether or not a person who does keep sinning remains saved or has ever been saved?  If you can answer that, we might actually be able to make some progress here?  We can agree that nobody can meet God's standard of holiness, in that we all will do things sinful without even realizing it, like sinful thoughts or losing our temper.  That is different from those who would go so far as to say we can choose to carry on an affair or rob a bank.  Can a Christian commit those kind of willful sins and remain saved or be saved in the first place? 

[Sevenseas]

No Butero.  That is not the question at all because every single one of us does sin.  We have forgiveness through the blood of Christ and if we confess our sins, God who is faithful

and just will forgive our sins.

 

This thread was not ever about sin.  It was always about grace.  God's grace.  I understand that some people are not quite comfortable accepting that as their robe of righteousness

and that some alterations may be in order.

 

I for one, however, do not ever imagine I can add to the grace of God.  I also know I cannot make anyone else stop sinning.  The only thing I can do, is pray for others.  Only the Holy Spirit

can create a new heart.  

 

God alone can see each of our hearts and He does not tell us to keep account of the hearts of others.  

 

As I cannot save even myself, I doubt your question with regards to others has any validity at all.  It is by grace that we are saved and not through any works just in case

anyone should boast.

 

So, praise God, He alone saves and He alone keeps those saved who are saved.

[Guest Butero]

No Butero.  That is not the question at all because every single one of us does sin.  We have forgiveness through the blood of Christ and if we confess our sins, God who is faithful

and just will forgive our sins.

 

This thread was not ever about sin.  It was always about grace.  God's grace.  I understand that some people are not quite comfortable accepting that as their robe of righteousness

and that some alterations may be in order.

 

I for one, however, do not ever imagine I can add to the grace of God.  I also know I cannot make anyone else stop sinning.  The only thing I can do, is pray for others.  Only the Holy Spirit

can create a new heart.  

 

God alone can see each of our hearts and He does not tell us to keep account of the hearts of others.  

 

As I cannot save even myself, I doubt your question with regards to others has any validity at all.  It is by grace that we are saved and not through any works just in case

anyone should boast.

 

So, praise God, He alone saves and He alone keeps those saved who are saved.

That being the case Sevenseas, that would mean that a Christian is free to do anything they want, good or bad.  It would also mean that those scriptures that tell us certain sins will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven are a lie, or the people committing those sins were never saved.  You said you are not promoting sin, and I am not suggesting you are, but at the same time, you are telling people that their behavior has no bearing on their being saved or lost.  That means that if a Christian does carry on an affair or takes up robbing banks, and even kills someone in the process, their soul is safe, provided they were a Christian in the first place?  If you think I am misrepresenting your position, I want you to explain where I am wrong?  I agree that if someone confesses their sins, no matter how bad they are, there is forgiveness, but what of those who don't confess them?