OEC and The New Heavens and New Earth

[Organic Medicine]

 

; For Sheniy.

I didnt' use your quote because it gets too long,that is the with multi quotes,but you asked why I said "in heaven we don't stagnate",

and you wondered why I said that . Well it was a bit hyperbolic,but as children we saw the image of heaven with adam and eve

standing in a garden ,just standing .I remember some time ago ,a Young 'atheist' on a board said he did'nt want to go to heaven

anyway ,because he would be completely bored . I laughed ,but you can see it is one of the many false ideas that young,and not

so young have of 'life eternal' ,that they will be bored stiff (forever).

I used to think we'd sit on clouds and play the harp for all eternity, and that we'd like it because...it was heaven. Haha. 

 

I don't know what it will be like in heaven exactly, but I do know it will be awesome.

 

True, unfortunately we have all been probably guilty of carrying over some teachings in our Sunday School or Church that really are incorrect.  Like the three wise men being shown at the Nativity.  Scripture says, they came to Joseph and Mary's home when Jesus was a child, not an infant, Lk 2:9.  Nothing says there were 3 wise men, just says Magi, Lk 2:1.  There could have been more or less.  Also, Jesus changing Saul's name to Paul.  Did not happen.  In fact, whenever Jesus did address him it was always as Saul.  Saul was also known as Paul, because he was a Diaspora Jew and a Roman citizen, Acts 13:9.  There are others.  It just indicates how we all really need to search G-d's word and let Him teach us, particularly if we are holding on to some tradition that could be preventing us.

Are we reading the same article? I just read almost this exact thing yesterday. lol

Good stuff.

 

 You know, I think different ideas of "heaven" and "being saved" or not ,are at the heart of most christian conflicts. Many are ready to take up arms to defend their version of "heaven" ,thereby creating

 "hell" on earth,  Ironic ,?  .

Yes,  well I 'm sure that we will get to play harps,as well as all the other things we will be doing. How about  the idea that  we know what we won't be doing ,being clearer ,and we know that there will be no more disaccord

because we will  be truly in Gods' "hands",in His territory,with only light and love in our minds

 and hearts,as we create our works .

Edited February 15, 2014 by Organic Medicine

[Organic Medicine]

Dear Shiloh All I can say is you have a great deal to learn ,especially about history,

and all the information that would be in those "books" about what Jesus taught

if they would be understood by all. Yes no doubt the bible is what should

be followed by those who wish to enter "the kingdom of heaven" ,but the other

books, would they have been beyond the masses AT THE TIME? I think so .

When Jesus was asked to summarise what was Essential, He said to love God ,and his

fellow men. You insist that the earth is 6000 years old. It does not say that in

the bible,but is an idea which is disputed ,not by atheist scientists,but by

christian ones,people of great Learning and experience,with trial and error ,and

who love and believe in Jesus as God and Saviour .They do not want the blood

of martyrs ,but the truth.

So is it essential ? If not why plug it has being so,when it is in doubt?

I will not be able to reply to any posts ,but wish you well.

[OldSchool2]

 

 

 

That is not even English. It's a "word salad" that reads like a math question from an SAT.

Not only do you twist the words of others, you twist English itself into a pretzel.

That is complete nonsense.  The fact is that you aren't intepreting Scripture.  YOU are deciding on your own, with no biblical support that Gen. 1-3 is a parable.   There is no word salad in that at all.     You are assigning "parable" to the text to justify why you can't believe the Bible as written ...

 

What I don't believe is that the days of the creation story are literal days, but a literary device that simply, but profoundly explained creation to a then scientifically primitive society. In fact, it still does that today.

 

Sorry, but they were not that primitive at all.  These ancients have built structures that demonsrate an advanced understanding of physics and engineering even by understanding.

 

The fact is that they understood things like "millions of years" and long epochs of time.   If had wanted to communicate that the days of creation were long periods of time, there were words in their language to say exactly that.    

 

The truth is that you are manufacturing the whole "literary device"  argument and you do with NO biblicical evidence.  The problem is that you are making a textual argument which demands textual evidence.  You have none.  There is NO credible basis for an argument that is made up out of whole cloth or pulled out of thin air.  Genesis 1 is not meant to be understood as a parable.   You can't provide one shred of textual evidence to the contrary.  That alone is testimony to the falseness of the "parable" claim.

 

That means I don't have to argue for a young Earth, or contradict carbon dating, or deny a host of other scientific disciplines in order to satisfy a literalist interpretation of Genesis 1-3 when there are three other horses in the "Quadriga".

Carbon dating isn't reliable.  It dates recently formed volcanic rock as being millions of years old.  It has been found to misdate the age of young trees only a few years old, dating them to be thousands of years old.  There are a plethora of examples of how carbon dating consistently produces erroneous dates for rocks and other materials.   There is no scientific discipline that has proven the age of the earth.  Even radiometric dating is seriously flawed and relies on erroneous assumptions.

 

The fact is that God is true to His word and He means exactly what He says.  The Bible is meant to be interpeted literally, not by subjective human opinions.  The Bible is God's word, and not some book you can treat like a smorgasboard.   You have overstepped your authority in attempting to revise God's word to suit your person preconceptions.

 

 

And as for biblical support, since Jesus is the logos of God who spoke through many parables in the New Testament, there's no reason to completely dismiss that He is doing the same in Genesis.

Yeah, there are plenty of reasons.   Jesus always explained His parables ...

 

But Jesus only explained them to His disciples, who then explained them to us. Or have you forgotten Luke 8:9-10?

"His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, 'The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'"

And the "height" of ancient technology was the Tower of Babylon (Genesis 11); it was designed to enhance the reputation of it's builders, but the result was confusion.

Finally, the implacable literalism of your replies can be so burdensome that it becomes difficult for intelligent people to accept your insistent interpretations of scripture.

Whatever happened to: "He came to take away your sins, not your brain"?

"There are four types of people who hear the Word of God. First, there is the person whose mind is closed ... The second group is more interesting and applicable to us. This is the seed that falls on shallow ground. This symbolizes those people who cannot or will not think things out for themselves. These people get all excited about something and then, just as quickly, get bored and drop it. This is, precisely, what it means to be shallow soil. In order for the seed to take root, the soil must have depth. Christianity is not merely an emotional search for God. It is an intellectual search as well and has a profound intellectual content. Faith makes demands on our minds as well as our hearts. As an old priest friend of mine used to say, 'Jesus came to take away your sins not your brain.' Faith is not just a feeling. Faith must be thought through and struggled with, so that all of our being is transformed and informed by the Word of God."

http://2thinkgood.com/2011/07/09/3384/

[Enoch2021]

Dear Shiloh All I can say is you have a great deal to learn ,especially about history,

and all the information that would be in those "books" about what Jesus taught

if they would be understood by all. Yes no doubt the bible is what should

be followed by those who wish to enter "the kingdom of heaven" ,but the other

books, would they have been beyond the masses AT THE TIME? I think so .

When Jesus was asked to summarise what was Essential, He said to love God ,and his

fellow men. You insist that the earth is 6000 years old. It does not say that in

the bible,but is an idea which is disputed ,not by atheist scientists,but by

christian ones,people of great Learning and experience,with trial and error ,and

who love and believe in Jesus as God and Saviour .They do not want the blood

of martyrs ,but the truth.

So is it essential ? If not why plug it has being so,when it is in doubt?

I will not be able to reply to any posts ,but wish you well.

 

 

================================================================================================================

 

Dear Shiloh All I can say is you have a great deal to learn ,especially about history,

and all the information that would be in those "books" about what Jesus taught

if they would be understood by all.

 

What Books?

 

 

Yes no doubt the bible is what should

be followed by those who wish to enter "the kingdom of heaven" ,but the other

books, would they have been beyond the masses AT THE TIME? I think so .

 

Again What Books?  Beyond what masses?  At What Time?

 

 

You insist that the earth is 6000 years old. It does not say that in

the bible

 

It doesn't say Millions or Billions of Years either.  However; it does say "in 6 Days" (See Exodus 20:11) and the time is deducted from the Genealogy list in Genesis 5.  And most importantly.....if the Earth and Universe is Billions of Years Old and you believe Death/Disease/Thorns (Fossils) were accumulating for millions and millions of Years before Adam Sinned; then by Proxy, you undermine the need for a KINSMEN REDEEMER (JESUS CHRIST).

 

 

 

but is an idea which is disputed ,not by atheist scientists,but by

christian ones,people of great Learning and experience,with trial and error

 

 

Relevance?  And it's a Logical Fallacy....Argument to Popularity.

 

With Trial and Error?  How do you Trial and Error yourself to Billions of Years?

 

They do not want the blood

of martyrs ,but the truth.

 

Who doesn't want the Blood of Martyrs?  What Martyrs and What Blood?

 

 

So is it essential ? If not why plug it has being so,when it is in doubt?

 

I believe it is the Foundation of the ENTIRE BIBLE.

 

Why "plug" it?  See discussion with Death/Disease/Thorns (Fossils) and Kinsmen Redeemer.

 

There is no doubt

 

 

I will not be able to reply to any posts ,but wish you well.

 

Why?

[Organic Medicine]

Enoch, I don't believe that the earth is billions of years old but older than than 6,OOO

years ,and I think that now the atheistic darwinians are being proved wrong about not needing God because we had time to evolve,(billions of years indeed) AN awful lot of time has been taken up in the last 200 years in believing in this false theory.Good scientists have had to use energy in battles against nihilistic theories in society in universities,in schools etc It has produced so much strife ,but God is testing us pushing us to learn, how to debate.We are living in a school planned and organised like a computer programme to get us to be ready for Heaven .The bible was written 2-4000years ago to give us an overall picture of God' plans for us ,but He is clearly to me anyway,guiding our growth always. The internet and the computer are a metaphor which shows us how He is doing this ,but if you are not looking in the right direction you can miss all of that .

I am looking forward to new findings on the older age of the earth,and other civilisations etc ,but,we are certainly coming into a very 'historic moment in God's plans .

Edited February 15, 2014 by Organic Medicine

[Enoch2021]

Enoch, I don't believe that the earth is billions of years old .I think it is older than 6,OOO

years ,and I think that now the atheistic darwinians are being proved wrong about not needing God because we had time to evolve,(billions of years indeed) AN awful lot of time has been taken up in the last 200 years in believing in this false theory,good scientists have had to use energy in wrong

battles against nihilistic theaories in universities,in schools etc It has produced so much strife ,but God is testing us pushing us to learn, how to debate.We are living in school planned and organised like a computer programme to get us to be ready for Heaven .The bible was written 2-4000years ago to give us an overall picture of God' plans for us ,but He is clearly to me anyway,guiding our growth . The internet and the computer are His metaphor to show us how He is doing this ,but if you are not looking in the right direction you can miss all of that .

I am looking forward to new findings on the older age of the earth,and other civilisations etc ,but,we are certainly coming into a very 'historic moment in God's plans .

 

===================================================================================================

 

 

Enoch, I don't believe that the earth is billions of years old .I think it is older than 6,OOO

 

What do you base your "I think" on?

 

 

The internet and the computer are His metaphor to show us how He is doing this

 

What about the Holy Bible?

 

The Internet/Communications/Media all travel through air metaphorically/ and practically (in some cases).  Who is the Prince? ......

 

(Ephesians 2:2) "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

 

No I'm not saying these items are evil, I'm just sayin.....BE CAREFUL^{10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000}

 

 

but,we are certainly coming into a very 'historic moment in God's plans .

 

Yes. The Largest Escrow Closing in the History of The Universe!!!!

 

Someone else is in possession of this world now.....

 

(Luke 4:5-8) "And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.  {6} And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.  {7} If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.  {8} And Jesus answered and said unto him,  Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

 

Jesus didn't question his ownership..........very interesting.

[Enoch2021]

 

Not sure what you were trying to argue here. I honestly don't see anything here I disagree with.

Death is the consequence of sin. Ok. Man sinned and spiritually died, God removed the Tree of Life (or removed man from the Garden), man began to revert back to his original state of dust (aka physical death). (This really makes sense if we include clb's Holy of Holies in the Garden idea. I wish he were here to give his thoughts on this)

Death isn't a thing to be created or destroyed. It is the absence of life.

Same as dark is the absence of light. Cold is the absence of heat. Death, dark, and cold are just names we give to describe the absence of something. They are not things in themselves, therefore can't be made or unmade. If you remove the source of light from a room, you have no light. Flick on the light and the darkness will flee. But you can't add a source of darkness to a lit room.  The lowest temperature possible, absolute zero (-273.15 degrees celcius) is the lack of all energy (heat). There is no source of cold.

Same goes for death. Remove the Source of Life, and you have no life.

When the Source of Life returns, we will all have new bodies, and death will be no more.

 

 

=====================================================================================================

 

Same as dark is the absence of light. Cold is the absence of heat. Death, dark, and cold are just names we give to describe the absence of something.  They are not things in themselves, therefore can't be made or unmade.

 

You may be mistaken:

 

That word for darkness is Choshek (in Genesis 1:1-2), it means an unnatural darkness not just the absence of light.

 

It's also found here.....(Exodus 10:21) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt."

 

 

So.....there appears to be a "darkness" that is much more than the absence of Light.

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

Not sure what you were trying to argue here. I honestly don't see anything here I disagree with.

Death is the consequence of sin. Ok. Man sinned and spiritually died, God removed the Tree of Life (or removed man from the Garden), man began to revert back to his original state of dust (aka physical death). (This really makes sense if we include clb's Holy of Holies in the Garden idea. I wish he were here to give his thoughts on this)

Death isn't a thing to be created or destroyed. It is the absence of life.

Same as dark is the absence of light. Cold is the absence of heat. Death, dark, and cold are just names we give to describe the absence of something. They are not things in themselves, therefore can't be made or unmade. If you remove the source of light from a room, you have no light. Flick on the light and the darkness will flee. But you can't add a source of darkness to a lit room.  The lowest temperature possible, absolute zero (-273.15 degrees celcius) is the lack of all energy (heat). There is no source of cold.

Same goes for death. Remove the Source of Life, and you have no life.

When the Source of Life returns, we will all have new bodies, and death will be no more.

 

 

=====================================================================================================

 

Same as dark is the absence of light. Cold is the absence of heat. Death, dark, and cold are just names we give to describe the absence of something.  They are not things in themselves, therefore can't be made or unmade.

 

You may be mistaken:

 

That word for darkness is Choshek (in Genesis 1:1-2), it means an unnatural darkness not just the absence of light.

 

It's also found here.....(Exodus 10:21) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt."

 

 

So.....there appears to be a "darkness" that is much more than the absence of Light.

 

 

any darkness is the absence of Light, an unnatural darkness would merely be a darkness that took place when not expected, which would be the case in both of your passages. 

[enoob57]

God created darkness!

[Enoch2021]

God created darkness!

 

Yes he did Sir.   and.....

 

(Exodus 10:21) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt."

 

It's not describing the "When".....it's describing the "What"