Ezekial 38, 39 - before or after the Tribulation?

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

No. The war mentioned in Eze. 38-39 is a regional war mounted by a coolition of nations that attack Israel from the North.  The war of Armageddon metioned in Revelation is a war in which all of the nations of the world are aligned against Israel.

 

Even the coalition of Ezekiel is from the north, the south and the east. (Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, Togarmah, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya) AND many people.

 

Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

 

Most of those nations are still located in the near east.  The only exception being the possibility that the cooilition is led by Russia.   But the war of Armageddon is described much differently, as being far more global referencing every nation on earth.  That would include nations not mentioned in Ezek. 38-39

 

The phrase "and many people with thee" indicates that other nations were there, not just the listed ones. So there is nothing in Ezekiel 38/39 that precludes the global nature of Armageddon.

[Izzel]

The Ezekiel 38-39 war is the battle of Arageddon in revevlation 16 and 19

 

However please note  a 1/6 part of them are to remain 

 

Ezekiel 39

King James Version (KJV)

39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the LordGod; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel

 

 

What happen to the 1/6 part of Gog and Magog 

 

Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

 

Thus God kills 5/6 og All the nations that came agaist Israel at the battle of Armageddon and left a 1/6 to multiply during the 1000 years thus the devil takes them at the end of the 1000years to wage one final battle against the camp of the saints on the earth at Jerusalem and God cooke the people and threw the dvil into the lake of fire 

[Montana Marv]

The war of Ezk 38 and 39 is not Armageddon.

 

With Ezk ; Israel buries the dead for 7 months.  Men will regularly be employed to cleanse the land. The bodies will be buried in the valley of Hamon Gog (Hamonah).  Israel will plunder those who plundered them, they will loot those who looted them.  (No mention of horses here) They will burn the weapons of war for 7 years as fuel.  I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.  I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals.

 

With Armageddon all the birds flying in mid air are to eat the flesh of men and horses.  All the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.  No mention of carrion birds only or wild beasts.  These were killed by the sword (Word of God) which came out of the riders mouth.

 

Two different wars, two different outcomes.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest shiloh357]

Ezekiel 38 and 39 are not Armageddon

 

1.  The war in Ezek 38, 39 is led by Gog/Magog (Russia), whereas, Armageddon is led by the Anti-Christ.

 

2.  Ezekiel 38,39 reveal to us that the purpose is for material spoil, but in Armageddon is about the destruction of Israel.

 

3. In Ezed. 38 adn 39 the armies are wiped out on the mountains of Israel before they can overtake Israel.  But at Armegeddon, the armies meet at Megiddo and are destroyed at Megiddo.

 

4.  Ezekiel is a nation at peace before the attack of the Gog/Magog co-olition.   But Israel will be suffering under during the tribulation prior to Armageddon. 

 

There are enough differences in these two conflicts to preclude them from being the same war.  Besides, very competent and respected prophecy teacher recognizes that they are not the same.

[ARGOSY]

The war of Ezk 38 and 39 is not Armageddon.

 

With Ezk ; Israel buries the dead for 7 months.  Men will regularly be employed to cleanse the land. The bodies will be buried in the valley of Hamon Gog (Hamonah).  Israel will plunder those who plundered them, they will loot those who looted them.  (No mention of horses here) They will burn the weapons of war for 7 years as fuel.  I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.  I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals.

 

With Armageddon all the birds flying in mid air are to eat the flesh of men and horses.  All the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.  No mention of carrion birds only or wild beasts.  These were killed by the sword (Word of God) which came out of the riders mouth.

 

Two different wars, two different outcomes.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Its funny that you say that, because Ezekiel 39 does actually describe the great feast of birds:

 “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk.  At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,’ declares the Sovereign Lord.

 

Birds don't eat everything, I suspect there will be not enough birds and too many bodies, and so some cleaning up operation is needed after the Ezekiel 38 time that all the people on the face of the earth tremble at God's presence:

The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence.

[ARGOSY]

Ezekiel 38 and 39 are not Armageddon

 

1.  The war in Ezek 38, 39 is led by Gog/Magog (Russia), whereas, Armageddon is led by the Anti-Christ.

 

2.  Ezekiel 38,39 reveal to us that the purpose is for material spoil, but in Armageddon is about the destruction of Israel.

 

3. In Ezed. 38 adn 39 the armies are wiped out on the mountains of Israel before they can overtake Israel.  But at Armegeddon, the armies meet at Megiddo and are destroyed at Megiddo.

 

4.  Ezekiel is a nation at peace before the attack of the Gog/Magog co-olition.   But Israel will be suffering under during the tribulation prior to Armageddon. 

 

There are enough differences in these two conflicts to preclude them from being the same war.  Besides, very competent and respected prophecy teacher recognizes that they are not the same.

1) Can you show me your verses that show that the antichrist leads the Armageddon attack?  Daniel 11 seems to indicate that the antichrist already has taken over Israel and is surprised by reports from the north and east, this is where Gog attacks from. He gets in a great rage, this does not appear to be his planned attack.

 

2) Sometimes there can be dual motives, to attack a nation and steal its property. 

 

3) The army is spread across the plain of Megiddo, from the Meditteranean to the dead sea:

Joel 2: I will drive the northern horde far from you,

    pushing it into a parched and barren land;

its eastern ranks will drown in the Dead Sea

    and its western ranks in the Mediterranean Sea

 

That spread includes Megiddo, and also includes the mountains of Israel.

 

4) Please tell me where the bible says Israel will be suffering. In Daniel 2 and in Revelation 13 we see that the last 3.5 years involve persecution of Christians, yet during Satan's final period of wrath in Rev 12 Israel is protected during the 3.5 years of persecution. Rev 12 indicates that Israel is protected during the final 3.5 years, Israel is not suffering at all.

[Montana Marv]

Israel does suffer during the last 3 1/2 years according to Scripture. 

 

Read Matt 24:15-19; So when you see standing in the holy place..... Flee to the mountains....  How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers.  Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

 

and Zech 13:8,9 - In the whole land, declares the Lord, two thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third will be left in it.  This third I will bring into the fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold.......

 

and Jer 30:7 - How awful that day will be, None will be like it, It will be a time of trouble for Jacob.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ARGOSY]

Israel does suffer during the last 3 1/2 years according to Scripture. 

 

Read Matt 24:15-19; So when you see standing in the holy place..... Flee to the mountains....  How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers.  Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

 

and Zech 13:8,9 - In the whole land, declares the Lord, two thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third will be left in it.  This third I will bring into the fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold.......

 

and Jer 30:7 - How awful that day will be, None will be like it, It will be a time of trouble for Jacob.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Montana, those verses seem to be day of the Lord verses. They support my position that the troubles for Israel occur at the end of the tribulation when the northern army attacks Israel.

[wingnut-]

Israel does suffer during the last 3 1/2 years according to Scripture. 

 

Read Matt 24:15-19; So when you see standing in the holy place..... Flee to the mountains....  How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers.  Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

 

and Zech 13:8,9 - In the whole land, declares the Lord, two thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third will be left in it.  This third I will bring into the fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold.......

 

and Jer 30:7 - How awful that day will be, None will be like it, It will be a time of trouble for Jacob.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Israel does suffer during the last 3 1/2 years according to Scripture. 

 

Read Matt 24:15-19; So when you see standing in the holy place..... Flee to the mountains....  How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers.  Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

 

and Zech 13:8,9 - In the whole land, declares the Lord, two thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one third will be left in it.  This third I will bring into the fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold.......

 

and Jer 30:7 - How awful that day will be, None will be like it, It will be a time of trouble for Jacob.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

This comes from the prophet Hosea.

 

Hosea 2:¹⁴ “Therefore I am now going to allure her;

    I will lead her into the wilderness

    and speak tenderly to her.

¹⁵ There I will give her back her vineyards,

    and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.

There she will respond as in the days of her youth,

    as in the day she came up out of Egypt.

 

And we also see these passages in Revelation 12.

 

Revelation 12:⁶ The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

 

Revelation 12:¹⁴ The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. ¹⁵ Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. ¹⁶ But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. ¹⁷ Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

 

Israel is going to be protected by God for the last half of the seven years, when they see Daniel's prophecy take place they are going to realize they made a mistake somewhere along the way.  I can't say what they will do, but if I suddenly realized I was errant in my beliefs, the first thing I would do is find out what my true Messiah had to say.  Jesus tells the people living in Judea to flee immediately, I think they will get the message.

[wingnut-]

I think we've discussed this before quite a few times, but I've never seen an actual thread on it.

 

A few points:

 

1/ Is the Gog, Magog war of Ezekiel the same as the Gog, Magog war of Revelation?

 

2/ Why does the mentioning of weapons used for fuel for seven years apply if this war is after the Millennium rule? Does the seven years not apply to the Great Trib?

 

3/ How can Israel be living in peace and without walls if the Ezekiel war is not after the Trib as there will be no peace on Earth until then.

 

4/ If the Ezekiel war is before the Trib, does it come after the Psalm 83 war, or is this the same war?

 

5/ If the Ezekiel war is before the trib, are we possibly seeing signs now that will lead up to it?

 

I personally think that the Ezekiel war is pre-Trib and is not the same as the Revelation Gog-Magog war, however recently I've been having doubts.

 

Gog and Magog do not exist, no countries by this name have existed to date, so clearly this is a symbolic reference.  John points to the same reference in Revelation 20, because they are the same thing.  If they were not the same thing, he would have called them something different.  What Ezekiel describes matches what John describes in Revelation 19 as well, compare those who come to fight in each scenario, the kings, princes, generals, mighty men, the same group.  Compare the great feast for the birds and wild animals, the great earthquake in Jerusalem, the fire from heaven, the great hailstorm.  All of these things don't align by coincidence, I don't believe in coincidence.

 

Perhaps the truth of the matter is, the thousand years is not literally a thousand years, and merely a brief period of time.  Is it coincidence that the bible states to God a thousand years is to a day as a day is to a thousand years?  I've always believed it was a literal thousand years, but this does not make it so, and to me what Ezekiel and John recorded indicate that it may not be a thousand years at all.  There is no doubt in my mind that the Gog and Magog war in Revelation 20 is the same war Ezekiel spoke of, God doesn't give bad signs, and Gog-Magog is a symbol.

 

Israel could be living without walls because when the great earthquake happens and a third of the city falls, so will the walls.  It is also possible that when the 7 year peace is made the walls will come down at that time, there are several possibilities for why the walls are no longer there.  All I can say for sure is this, the armies don't gather for the battle until after He comes like a thief in Revelation 16:15,16.  This most likely accounts for the additional days Daniel speaks of in Daniel 12:11,12 where we go from 1260 days, to 1290 days, to 1335 days.  That is an additional 75 days, clearly something happens in that time period.  Daniel even breaks them into two separate groups of days, 30 and 45.  Perhaps one group represents the thousand years and the other the culmination of the battle of Armageddon, after all, the book of Daniel closes with this.

 

Daniel 12:¹³ “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

 

Daniel isn't going to rise until the end of the days, I don't believe for one second that I would precede him.  The real question is, which days does Daniel rise after?  1260?  1290?  1335?