The Distant Starlight Problem

[Spock]

not speaking to Shiloh.......    Is it ok for me to use the term "BS" here?????

The way some posters have "misunderstood" everything I write here makes it hard for me to believe that I was ever a published author.Should I stop posting, or just change my screen name from OldSchool to "Cassandra"? It's an old Greek myth that is fast becoming a reality on this thread.http://voices.yahoo.com/the-tragic-greek-myth-cassandra-548427.html

Hey old school,

Mind me asking what you have published?

Also, would it be impertinent to ask you for a signed free copy of whatever it is? Thanks.

A fan,

Spock

I've been published in VFW magazine -- featured articles about building a military showcase and digital on-demand publishing -- written local articles in the now-defunct Stratford Bard, The Talon magazine -- when I was in Bosnia in 2000 -- and the Fort Hood Sentinel when I was a combat correspondent for HHC 1st Brigade 2nd Armored Division during Desert Storm, but most recently a letter in History magazine re the Battle of Midway.

 

You might find some of the above on line, but most of my published military writing goes back to the early 90's.

Thanks. Another military man I see. You and Enoch have another thing in common besides your love for Christ.

[wincam]

the earth did not became or become it was void and empty of vegetation and life and the fall of Lucifer[satan] was the same as the fall of man into which he ensnared man viz a fall from spirituality to materiality - btw there was one landmass out of the water and in or surrounded by water as per 2Peter. 3:3-5 -  wincam

Edited February 1, 2014 by wincam

[anthonyjmcgirr]

I promise I am not promoting the gap theory.  Like I stated, I believe in a literal 7-day creation.  But Satan didn't fall with man or for tricking man.  He fell because of pride.  He fell to the earth as lightning as described in the bible by God Himself.  So Satan was already fallen when he tried to ensnare man.  How could he have fallen to an earth that didn't exist?  I don't believe there are gaps between the days of creation.  I understand I am possibly wrong about this because the bible isn't specific about when Satan fell.  This is just a theory. 

 

Even if the literal translation is "was", it "was form and void", still meaning it was there in a form and void of life. 

[Guest shiloh357]

I promise I am not promoting the gap theory.  Like I stated, I believe in a literal 7-day creation.  But Satan didn't fall with man or for tricking man.  He fell because of pride.  He fell to the earth as lightning as described in the bible by God Himself.  So Satan was already fallen when he tried to ensnare man.  How could he have fallen to an earth that didn't exist?  I don't believe there are gaps between the days of creation.  I understand I am possibly wrong about this because the bible isn't specific about when Satan fell.  This is just a theory. 

 

Even if the literal translation is "was", it "was form and void", still meaning it was there in a form and void of life. 

Satan fell to the earth prior to the fall of man, which is all we can say with any degree of certainty.  We do not know how much time transpired between the time Adam was created and when he fell in the Garden of Eden.   Satan most likely fell during that parenthesis of time between Adam and Eve's creation and the moment they first encountered satan in the garden.  There is NOTHING in the Bible that claims that Satan's fall had to have occurred on a previous, pre-adamite earth. 

 

The Gap theory isn't stating that there are gaps between the days of creation.  It states that between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 there is an alleged gap of millions of years and this has been fronted as a reconcilation between evolution and the Bible, as this is supposed to have been when the cave men and dinosaurs lived and when satan fell.  The problem is that the Bible makes no room for this, but some people will cling to it anyway.

 

Even if the literal translation is "was", it "was form and void", still meaning it was there in a form and void of life. 

 

It doesn't say it was "form and void."  It says it was "formless and void."  The word "was" is the correct translation.  "Became" is an impoosible translation given the Hebrew grammatical construction, which is why no translation uses the word, "became."

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Shiloh,

     This is very true & correct.....Having been(was) formless and void & in further translation we see there was not order but a chaotic place that was inhabited by demons,,,,it could not have supported any life form,not animal,vegetable or any other....so the clinging to the belief that the dinosaurs or anything other than demonic entities were present pre-adamic is in direct contrast with the written Word of God,,,thank you for including this Truth

                                                                                                                                    With love,in Christ-kwik

[Spock]

I promise I am not promoting the gap theory. Like I stated, I believe in a literal 7-day creation. But Satan didn't fall with man or for tricking man. He fell because of pride. He fell to the earth as lightning as described in the bible by God Himself. So Satan was already fallen when he tried to ensnare man. How could he have fallen to an earth that didn't exist? I don't believe there are gaps between the days of creation. I understand I am possibly wrong about this because the bible isn't specific about when Satan fell. This is just a theory.

Even if the literal translation is "was", it "was form and void", still meaning it was there in a form and void of life.

Satan fell to the earth prior to the fall of man, which is all we can say with any degree of certainty. We do not know how much time transpired between the time Adam was created and when he fell in the Garden of Eden. Satan most likely fell during that parenthesis of time between Adam and Eve's creation and the moment they first encountered satan in the garden. There is NOTHING in the Bible that claims that Satan's fall had to have occurred on a previous, pre-adamite earth.

The Gap theory isn't stating that there are gaps between the days of creation. It states that between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 there is an alleged gap of millions of years and this has been fronted as a reconcilation between evolution and the Bible, as this is supposed to have been when the cave men and dinosaurs lived and when satan fell. The problem is that the Bible makes no room for this, but some people will cling to it anyway.

Even if the literal translation is "was", it "was form and void", still meaning it was there in a form and void of life.

It doesn't say it was "form and void." It says it was "formless and void." The word "was" is the correct translation. "Became" is an impoosible translation given the Hebrew grammatical construction, which is why no translation uses the word, "became."

Wow Shiloh, I didn't think you would interpret Ezekiel 28 with this fairy tale. Now I am very confused.

You couldn't get around Satans fall from Heaven and you couldn't get around satan being in Eden because The word says that, so you concocted this fantasy putting satan on earth contemporaneously with Adam. I'm not sure what you think satan was doing while in Eden, but the word says he was in the garden and every precious stone adorned him. This does not sound like he was already expelled from Heaven. It sounds like he came to earth for a purpose.

So now you decide, in order to fit your model, Satans fall happened between Adams creation and Eves creation. Does the word specifically say this? If so, show me. If not, then I guess you did what many of us do when given few details - we infer.

Please explain this passage for my benefit-

13You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,

topaz, onyx and jasper,

lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.b

Your settings and mountingsc were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

My version, which you mock goes like this-

I have satan coming down from Heaven in some unknown past in glory to rule because he was made perfect and god adorned him. Apparently he was ruling somebody ( preadamites ? (people not made in the image of God), angels?) Subsequently, satan fell from grace, verse 16 says "because of his widespread trade you were filled with violence and you sinned so I drove you from the mount of god and expelled you o guardian cherub"- and God judged him. Enter the first flood. This created the "void and darkness" in Genesis 1:2.

Now, God decides to make man in his image to be the rulers of planet earth since satan was no longer qualified. Enter Adam. Planet earth now restored in six days. Satan now wants his dominion back, and you know the rest.

I know you won't buy this version, but you have to admit-it is possible. Perhaps even more possible than your story.

Spock out

Ezekiel 28:

11The word of the Lord came to me: 12“Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“ ‘You were the seal of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,

topaz, onyx and jasper,

lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.b

Your settings and mountingsc were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

15You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

16Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence,

and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

17Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18By your many sins and dishonest trade

you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,

and it consumed you,

and I reduced you to ashes on the ground

in the sight of all who were watching.

19All the nations who knew you

are appalled at you;

you have come to a horrible end

and will be no more.’ ”

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Spock

      Just want to add a little something if I may.....the description given by God of the king of Tyre(satan)expounding on all the precious stones that adorn him only refer to his appearance(in Eden & also while he WAS upon the mount of God that he was driven from).....he always was beautiful & can appear to us as an angel of light.......that has nothing to do with his having some good purpose in Eden ....imo,if you wish to consider that

                                                                                                                             With love,in Christ-Kwik

[Shar]

Blessings Spock

      Just want to add a little something if I may.....the description given by God of the king of Tyre(satan)expounding on all the precious stones that adorn him only refer to his appearance(in Eden & also while he WAS upon the mount of God that he was driven from).....he always was beautiful & can appear to us as an angel of light.......that has nothing to do with his having some good purpose in Eden ....imo,if you wish to consider that

                                                                                                                             With love,in Christ-Kwik

 

The reference to Lucifer's glory and perfection is when he is in the Garden of Eden.  He was perfect and anointed until, "wickedness was found in you.  Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned.  So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones". 

 

The wickedness was as a result of his dishonesty and violence through widespread trade.  In order to have a trade, you must have a social system.  This social system was comprised of angels, or a being not created in G-d's image, or both.  The vehicle of his wickedness and violence was this widespread trade. 

 

G-d made Lucifer (meaning "Light-Bearer) perfect in beauty and full of wisdom.  He adorned and anointed him like no other.  G-d is actually taking up a lamentation ( a mourning, grief and cry ) over him.   In Isaiah 14:12, G-d again mourns out "O, How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn.  When G-d expelled him and cast him out, he promises that he will come to a terrible end.  G-d says he will be a terror.  He is a terror.  He is now "Ha Satan" (the adversary).  He did not take a glorious form in the Garden with Adam and Eve.  He used the serpent.  We have several references in scripture to the devil being likened as the serpent.  Rev. 12:9 " the serpent, called the devil, or Satan..."

Edited February 2, 2014 by Shar

[Guest shiloh357]

You couldn't get around Satans fall from Heaven and you couldn't get around satan being in Eden because The word says that, so you concocted this fantasy putting satan on earth contemporaneously with Adam.

 

He was on earth contemporaneosly with Adam.  How else would he and Adam been in the Garden at the same time??  And why would I want to "get around" Satan's fall from heaven??   I don't even know what you are trying to accuse me of, there.

 

I'm not sure what you think satan was doing while in Eden, but the word says he was in the garden and every precious stone adorned him. This does not sound like he was already expelled from Heaven. It sounds like he came to earth for a purpose.

 

But  you are working from a prophecy and you are trying to fit that prophecy into an historical narrative, so the first mistake you are making is mixing genres.  Furthermore, the prophetic word you are working from (Ez. 28:13 and ff) is referring to a man and is using some pretty colorful imagery that needs to be understood in light of that.  A lot of people don't have hermeutics as their strong suit, and so I can see where you would make this kind of mistake.

 

So now you decide, in order to fit your model all this happened between Adams creation and Eves creation

 

.I didn't say that. I said it happened in between Adam and Eve's creation and the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden.  Adam and Eve were created on the same day. 

 

Does the word specifically say this? If so, show me. If not, then I guess you did what many of us do when given few details - we infer.

 

I think you need to read my posts a little more carefully and not ask me to support claims I didn't make.

 

I have satan coming down from Heaven in some unknown past in glory to rule because he was made perfect and god adorned him. Apparently he was ruling somebody ( preadamites ? (people not made in the image of God), angels?) Subsequently, satan fell from grace, verse 16 says "because of his widespread trade you were filled with violence and you sinned so I drove you from the mount of god and expelled you o guardian cherub"- and God judged him. Enter the first flood. This created the "void and darkness" in Genesis 1:2.

 

 

And I have shown through the very way vv. 1 and 2 are constructed grammatically, that your version is impossible.  The author didnt allow for this scenario to be possible and the Hebrew proves it.  And so far you have been unable to produce ONE degreed Hebrew scholar or one mainstream translation that contradicts me. 

 

Now, God decides to make man in his image to be the rulers of planet earth since satan was no longer qualified. Enter Adam. Planet earth now restored in six days. Satan now wants his dominion back, and you know the rest.

 

 

This statement is wrong because it assumes that had there not been a rebellion, there would not have been a judgement that destroyed the entire pre-adamite earth and if so, there would not have been a need for a recreation and by extension, no need for us.  Well, I have news for you.

 

We were not created to replace satan. This earth is not, "Plan B."    We were not created to rule the earth because satan is disqualifed.  We were created special by God on purpose.   Creation began from a desire of God to have companionship and all that is made is made for us.  The entire universe was made for us and us alone.  The earth was custom designed out of all of the planets in the universe to house us and to support life.   We are not an after thought or a second attempt by God at creating something.  

 

The fact that God has not destroyed man off the earth and completely wiped the earth out beyond redemption because of sin is itself evidence that He would have never done that with any pre-adamite earth, either.  God's nature is all about redemption.   God redeems creation. 

[Spock]

Shiloh,

Ok, first things first.

You said SATANS FALL occurred between Adams creation and his sin in the garden. Right?

Show me where this is supported in the bible. Thanks.