The AUTHOR is GOD

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

 

You know it's intresting that even Sir Isaac Newton realized this and was working on these very things right up until his death.  

Hey Shiloh,

 

I was just curious.  Is this what you consider good exegesis?

 

clb

 

No.  I simply stated a historical fact.   He thought there were codes in the Hebrew text and was doing research on it.  There are volumes of his work on the matter.  

 

Does Enoch know you don't consider this good exegesis?

 

 

I am very certain Enoch knows what Shiloh had for breakfast this morning

[nebula]

Does Enoch know you don't consider this good exegesis?

 

I am very certain Enoch knows what Shiloh had for breakfast this morning

 

Guys - Please cut this out. I appreciate your frustration, but this makes things worse.

 

What should be an interesting intellectual exercise is being turned into a mock-fest.

 

Who is right and who is wrong in this is not that big of a deal. I've asked Enoch to treat this as such, so I am asking you two as well.

[nebula]

"Look at the numbers."

 

OK, who here enjoys playing with numbers and areas?

 

If someone can make rectangles and squares that would represent the numbers represented for each camp with proportional areas, and create a rectangle with a proportional dimensions for the size of the tabernacle, and then play around with lining them up as directed, this would go a much longer way towards solving the arrangement issue.

 

(As opposed to other people's graphs with equal sized squares/rectangles and a tabernacle that is sized unproportionally.)

[Enoch2021]

 

 

The camp in Numbers 2...when taken as written does not look much like a cross.

 

 

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Early in this thread I presented an image of what the camp looked like going just by the text...but  it lacks the emotional appeal that the bright cross on the blue background presents so it was dismissed.

 

It lacks the emotional appeal of the cross?  It lacks the completeness of the picture in TOTO and any scrutiny with basic arithmetic, Why?  LOOK @ THE NUMBERS!!

 

Even if we dismiss the Cardinal Directions {WHICH ARE THE ONLY DIRECTIONS ORDAINED!!!} and the one's that GOD Specifically Told Them to Line up on!

 

 

The Rate Limiting Step is the Width of the Levite Camp. 

 

Look @ the Camp of Ephraim (Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin) Above, you have 180,100.  In your Depiction, the Levite Camp of Gershon is 7500.  How wide can you go to the North and the South if your Camp Ephraim? ......7500.   Where are the rest of the 172,600 gonna go??

 

If you keep going past the width of the 7500 Levites.....What's gonna Happen to Benjamin and Dan to the NORTH and Ephraim and Gad to the South???

 

 

Can somebody....Please Please I'm begging, for the Love of Everything Sacred and Holy, EXPLAIN THIS TO HIM.

 

 

Here is a suggestion, move past the 12 year old dramatics and stick to the topic at hand.  Probably asking too much of you, but it is worth a try.

The Bible does not say that the camp of Ephraim cannot be wider than the camp of Gershon, so the camp of Gershon is not a limiting factor.  The picture above displays how the camp was set up, just going by God's word and not adding your own ideas to God's word.

 

Looking back through this thread I see I had missed this gem from you...The Jewish Mindset is to follow the Letter of the LAW!!! (See Cardinal Directions Above);  that means NO GO for  NE/NW/SE/SW.

There are two problems with this.  First, according to the Bible and not your imagination, the Jews were not very good at following the rules. Some examples would be the golden calf, trying to gather mana when told not to, trying to store mana for the next day, and about 1000 more examples just in the first 5 books of the Bible.  Second problem is that Northwest, Northeast, Southwest, southeast are never used in the Bible, not once.  The terms North, South, East and West are typically used as a general direction.   And one other thing just struck me, using the camp of Dan to the north.  If that camp cannot be anything but exactly north of the Tent of Meeting, would that not mean that the camp of Dan can be no wider than the Tent of Meting, otherwise you are getting to the NW and NE of the tent.  So, is it your position that the 4 camps were no wider than the sides of the Tent of Meeting they were aligned with?

 

 

 

 

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The Bible does not say that the camp of Ephraim cannot be wider than the camp of Gershon, so the camp of Gershon is not a limiting factor.  The picture above displays how the camp was set up, just going by God's word and not adding your own ideas to God's word.

 

 

There are two problems with this.  First, according to the Bible and not your imagination, the Jews were not very good at following the rules. Some examples would be the golden calf, trying to gather mana when told not to, trying to store mana for the next day, and about 1000 more examples just in the first 5 books of the Bible.

 

In Jerusalem in Hotels and other such establishments they have Sabbath Elevators alongside Regular Elevators.  That is, these elevators stop on each and every floor in both directions.  Why?  So if you're observing the Sabbath, you don't have to "push the Button"...... whereby; compromising your position of "no work".

 

 

So, is it your position that the 4 camps were no wider than the sides of the Tent of Meeting they were aligned with?

 

It's really not my position.....  It's the only position, just logistically speaking, Sir

 

This is my last response to you concerning the matter.  Hopefully somebody else can explain it to you where you can understand it

[Sheniy]

In Jerusalem in Hotels and other such establishments they have Sabbath Elevators alongside Regular Elevators. That is, these elevators stop on each and every floor in both directions. Why? So if you're observing the Sabbath, you don't have to "push the Button"...... whereby; compromising your position of "no work".

Are you being facetious, again, Enoch? I can't tell. Lol

Edited February 23, 2014 by Sheniy

[Enoch2021]

"Look at the numbers."

 

OK, who here enjoys playing with numbers and areas?

 

If someone can make rectangles and squares that would represent the numbers represented for each camp with proportional areas, and create a rectangle with a proportional dimensions for the size of the tabernacle, and then play around with lining them up as directed, this would go a much longer way towards solving the arrangement issue.

 

(As opposed to other people's graphs with equal sized squares/rectangles and a tabernacle that is sized unproportionally.)

 

 

I'm speechless

[LookingForAnswers]

 

In Jerusalem in Hotels and other such establishments they have Sabbath Elevators alongside Regular Elevators.  That is, these elevators stop on each and every floor in both directions.  Why?  So if you're observing the Sabbath, you don't have to "push the Button"...... whereby; compromising your position of "no work".

 

 

We are speaking of ancient Jews, not those alive today.  The Old Testament has literally 1000s of examples of the Jews not following the intent of the law let alone the letter of the law.

[nebula]

In Jerusalem in Hotels and other such establishments they have Sabbath Elevators alongside Regular Elevators.  That is, these elevators stop on each and every floor in both directions.  Why?  So if you're observing the Sabbath, you don't have to "push the Button"...... whereby; compromising your position of "no work".

We are speaking of ancient Jews, not those alive today.  The Old Testament has literally 1000s of examples of the Jews not following the intent of the law let alone the letter of the law.

 

Actually, LFA, what you presented was not a valid argument. Yes, they disobeyed and rebelled many times, but so does everyone - including us. (Disobedience and doubt are not Jewish-exclusive.)

 

And while they disobeyed and rebelled many times, it was not every time. If they screwed up with this one, it would have been mentioned.

[LookingForAnswers]

"Look at the numbers."

 

OK, who here enjoys playing with numbers and areas?

 

If someone can make rectangles and squares that would represent the numbers represented for each camp with proportional areas, and create a rectangle with a proportional dimensions for the size of the tabernacle, and then play around with lining them up as directed, this would go a much longer way towards solving the arrangement issue.

 

(As opposed to other people's graphs with equal sized squares/rectangles and a tabernacle that is sized unproportionally.)

 

 

That is a great idea. 

 

lets look first at the math.

 

The Tent of Meeting's outer court was 60 cubits wide and 120 cubits long.  The 60 cubits are the East and West side with the 120 cubits being the North and South side.  A cubit is roughly 21 inches.  This puts the outer court at 1260 inches east and west, and 2520 inches north and south.  Converting to yards we have a rectangle that is 840 yards by 420 yards. 

 

Now the people were camping, not standing in formation. This would include sleeping and eating and all the other things one does.  I will go very conservative and say that each person took up a square yard.  So a 3'x3' square for each person. 

 

Lets look at each group of people.

 

To the east you have a total of 157600 people. The Tent is 140 yards wide here, thus you can have 140 people across, the rest have to go behind these people.  That gives you a depth of 1126 rows of people.  At a yard each that is 2/3 of a mile.

 

To the west you have a total of 151450 people.  The tent is 140 yards wide here so you can have a total of 140 people across, the rest have to go behind.  That gives you a depth of 1082 rows of people.  At a yard each that is 3/5 of a mile.

 

To the north you have a total of 108100 people.  The tent is 280 yards wide here so you can have a total of 280 people across, the rest have to go behind.  That gives you a depth of 386 rows of people.  At a yard each that is 2/9 of a mile.

 

To the south you have a total of 186400 people.  The tent is 280 yards wide here so you can have a total of 280 people across, the rest have to go behind.  That gives you a depth of 667 rows of people.  At a yard each that is 3/8 of a mile.

 

So you end up with the east arm being 2/3 of a mile, the west arm being 3/5 of a mile, the north arm being 2/9 of a mile and the south being 3/8 of a mile.

 

The simple math shows that the east and west arms are almost 3 times longer than the north and almost twice as long as the south.  In a cross the south leg is the longest, that is not the case with the camp, if it was set up the way Enoch puts forth.  This does not even touch upon the fact that some people would have to make a 1 1/2 mile round trip just to get close to the tent of meeting.

 

I will work on a picture, but the site will not allow me to upload my own jpeg so I am not sure how to do it. 

Edited February 23, 2014 by LookingForAnswers

[MorningGlory]

 

 

 

The Bible was written, inspired by God, to REVEAL, not conceal.  The idea that God set up Scripture so that we would have to hunt and peck and figure out mysterious codes is ludicrous.  And the familiar cycle continues; some can't take it when others don't buy their ideas or theories.  We should be able to get beyond that.  Don't we all serve the same God?

 

 

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some can't take it when others don't buy their ideas or theories.

 

I'm assuming that "some" is including me?

 

Well, I can take it.  And it wasn't a flippant "theory," I supported it.  If you'd like, you can refute any number of items that I posted...that's why I posted them.  If you do it systematically and respectfully with sound reasoning.....I have no problem, Whatsoever. If you refute it....GOOD!  We all learned something.....one less thing   If you confirm it and it Blesses You....Great!  You learned something.  It's a Win Win situation

 

 

The Bible was written, inspired by God, to REVEAL, not conceal.

 

Well that's a Strawman.  I never said it was written to "conceal".  I only wanted to point out that there apparently are some things concealed. 

 

I believe GOD also let us know, and then supported that with.....

 

(Proverbs 25:2) "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

 

 

We should be able to get beyond that.

 

Love, I presented the case and supported it.  If you think it's hogwash....I don't have an issue with it.  I found it compelling and very interesting.  Notwithstanding, there are some that probably do take it too far....so there is an inherent danger and I recognized that.

 

The idea..............is ludicrous.

 

See you're summarily dismissing the concept based on "an idea".   Then not only dismissing it but then adding your own color commentary that sounds emotional to me.  Do you have any "support" for your conclusion based on anything other than "an idea"??

 

Something that I can "Hang my Hat on", so to speak?

 

Don't we all serve the same God?

 

Now that's a question I've been asking myself for some time now.

 

 

Enoch, my posted comments referred to everyone who posts here, including me, and was in NO way about you.  Let go of the ego, stop trying to find something to be offended about and get on with it.  How you could make a generic post all about you if baffling to me. 

 

 

 

 

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Ok, well.... we've never talked before as far as I'm aware., and then you post this.....

 

"The Bible was written, inspired by God, to REVEAL, not conceal.  The idea that God set up Scripture so that we would have to hunt and peck and figure out mysterious codes is ludicrous.  And the familiar cycle continues; some can't take it when others don't buy their ideas or theories.  We should be able to get beyond that.  Don't we all serve the same God?"

 

So, I posted the OP.  You said my concept was Ludicrous (without any support I might add). Some can't take it when they don't buy their ideas/theories....I POSTED THE OP and was defending it.

 

Are you saying that it was "baffling to you" why I personalized this message?   Is it clear now?

 

 

Just a suggestion....when you have the Urge to post a "Generalization" Unbeknownst to the board, it would probably be a good idea to make sure those "Generalizations" are "Generalized"

 

Just my take

 

 

Duly noted but I doubt  I would do that.  I really didn't pay any attention to the identity of the OP.  I was, more or less, talking about how the wrangling and insulting comments occur on EVERY thread where someone makes a point he/she is convinced is right then comes the major disagreement from one or more posters; at that point many members (sometimes even me) get angry and start throwing the verbal grenades.  When you've been posting here as long as I have.....you'll know what I mean.