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Blessings of Abraham a transferrable promise?


Remnantrob

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The Gentiles do not need to be circumcised because we are not under the covenant of Abraham. We are under the New Covenant of Jesus.

 

The Holy Spirit is a part of Jesus' New Covenant, not a part of of the old Abrahamic Covenant.

 

Just because the word "Israel" has a meaning, that does not mean his name applies to us.

God uses names in the bible a lot of times to reflect a purpose or signify what the person represents - Jesus means " God is our salvation ".

And Israel's name applied to Israel. There is not indication the body of believers whom we in English call "the Church" is not a single person, not founded by anyone but Jesus, and was not given a name - like the man Abraham or the man Israel were given.

 

Abraham, Israel, received physical promises but the spiritual promises of the covenant were to come with the ministry, crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.

Please list these spiritual promises.

 

 

Heb 8: 6-8 -shows the old covenant had been broken by disobedience-and 2 Cor 3:6-9 show the new covenant is part of the better promises

I hope you know that there was more than one covenant in the Old Testament?

 

Adam had a covenant, Noah had a covenant, Abraham had a covenant, The children of Israel with Moses had a covenant, David had a covenant.

 

The "old covenant" spoken of in Heb. and 2 Cor. was the Mt. Sinai covenant, the one cut with the children of Israel with Moses, also known as the Mosaic covenant.

 

 

With Jesus we see the physical aspects of the old covenant like sacrifices, circumcision are no longer required. Jesus represents the new priesthood.

 

Agreed, but nothing in the covenant states a replacing of "Israel".

 

The new covenant was given to the Israel (the Jews), as was prophecied, but the people of the nations (the gentiles) were granted access to this covenant as well.

 

Only a remnant from both sides (Jews and Gentile) received this covenant.

 

 

Circumcision can be voluntary but not necessary for salvation regardless of physical lineage or heritage. Viewing circumcision as necessary, even to the Jewish converts to Christianity  would imply that faith and the blood of Jesus was not enough for them.

 

Circumcision was a sign of the covenant with Abraham.

 

 

 

We obey the law of circumcision when our attitudes are circumcised. We no longer need an outward sign with our savior Jesus Christ. We are keeping both covenants with the better promises of inward obedience written in our hearts. The physical promised land was Canaan -the spiritual promised land is the Kingdom of God.

 

Canaan was given to the the descendants of Israel, not the descendants of "Abraham." That Covenant only passes on through Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

 

Re: Spiritual promises to Israel we can look at Gen 49:10 -one of the spiritual promises God made to Abraham was the promise of the Messiah, His Son Jesus Christ, coming 

 

as our savior to redeem us from our sins and provide the way to eternal life.

 

The descendants of Israel were also the descendants of Abraham.

 

 

I consider the coming of Messiah Jesus to be a physical promise - after all, He physically came, did He not?

 

The descendants of Ishmael and Esau are descendants of Abraham as well. So?

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Nebula- Jesus the anointed one-the promised Messiah from the OT was conceived by the Holy Spirit set apart for a special purpose fulfilling the spiritual promises to Abraham of the promise that all the families of the earth shall be blessed. The creation of the Holy Bible would be a part of that spiritual promised blessing as well.

Jesus was born of a divine nature by means of Mary His human mother but He was both God and man with a special spiritual essence not like any other person.

He was the Son of God. and His deity would effect the promises and prophecies from the Old Testament to a spiritual level.

We can obey laws and rituals forever but if God did not fulfill the promise of the coming of the Messiah and His subsequent sacrifice we would never be justified and have the potential to be saved.

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Nebula- Jesus the anointed one-the promised Messiah from the OT was conceived by the Holy Spirit set apart for a special purpose fulfilling the spiritual promises to Abraham of the promise that all the families of the earth shall be blessed. The creation of the Holy Bible would be a part of that spiritual promised blessing as well.

Jesus was born of a divine nature by means of Mary His human mother but He was both God and man with a special spiritual essence not like any other person.

He was the Son of God. and His deity would effect the promises and prophecies from the Old Testament to a spiritual level.

We can obey laws and rituals forever but if God did not fulfill the promise of the coming of the Messiah and His subsequent sacrifice we would never be justified and have the potential to be saved.

 

I do not deny these things.

 

The debate is over the promise being "transferred" from "Israel" to "the Church", and that is an incorrect understanding of the covenants.

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Guest shiloh357

 

 

 

 

Gal 3:29 - " And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs to the promise."

 

Through Christ all nations are to be blessed.

 

The promises to Abraham are dual, both physical (the descendants of Abraham) and spiritual (the followers of Christ)

 

Spiritual Israel of God is the church.

No, the Church is not a spiritual Israel.   The NT never spiritualizes israel to refer to the Church.  The Church is NEVER called Israel.   Israel is Israel.  the Church is the Church.  They are radically separate in the NT.

 

 

In Gal 6: 15-16 - we see the church being referred to as the Israel of God.

 

 

No, we don't.   Paul is not referring to the church but to the remnant of believing Jews who are the true Israel, according to Paul in Romans 9.   Israel is NEVER spriitualized to refer to the church.  The Church is the Church  and Israel is Israel.  That is the ONLY correct and biblical way to look at it.

We know an assembly, a body of people, a congregation, is called a church.

 

In Acts 7:38 we see the people of Israel under Moses being referred to the " church in the wilderness"

 

No, we don't.  The original Greek word is "ekklesia" and refers to God's called out people.  The word "church" is not a translation of ekklesia and has no connection to that Greek word.  The word, "church" is a Germanic/teutonic word that means "circle" and originally referred to a group of sun worshippers in pre-Christian Europe.

 

Acts 7:38 is better rendered "the congregation" in the wilderness. 

 

 

Just as Israel was called out of Egypt, we in today's world have been called out of the sinning ways of the world by following Christ through the church He created on Pentecost.

 

Yes, but is nothing more than theological foreshadowing, and has nothing to do with who is or is not Israel.

 

God used physical Israel to help Him bring forth Spiritual Israel-paralleling His plan of salvation for mankind.

 

There is no spiritual Israel.   The Bible knows nothing of a "spiritual Israel."   That is a man made term born of sloppy theology.

Just as in Ezekiel 36 where God's spirit is promised to Israel, Ephesians 2:22 describes the indwelling of God's spirit to the church.

 

Israel was God's first born Ex 4:22

 

And the New Testament church is referred to as God's first born Heb 12:23

 

Wrong.  Hebrews 12:23 refers to us as the "church of the Firstborn."    The Firstborn in that verse is referring to Jesus.  We are the Church of Jesus Christ, and He is the "Firstborn" of creation, meaning He is the preimminent one of creation, the chief or head of all creation.

The church has an important role to mankind-first by receiving the physical blessings in the OT and then by receiving the spiritual blessings in the NT through Christ.

 

The Bible doesn't say that,  Sorry but you are wrong.   The Church receives none of the physical blessings promised to Israel and you have no Scripture that says otherwise.

 

Hey Shiloh,

 

I think church and congregation basically have the same meaning so I don't see a problem with that translation.  I'm curious if you could go further in your response that in Romans 9 Paul was speaking about Israel but was Pauls job to preach to the Gentiles?  Thank you.

 

No, church and congregation do not have the same meaning.  Church is a translation of a teutonic word (kirke) that means "circle."   Ancient pagans worshipped the sun in a cirlcle, especialy the Druids.   The word Church has NO etymological connection to congregation.

 

The word "ekklesia" should never have been translated into English.

 

Paul's message in Romans 9 Paul was addressing God's sovereignty over Israel in His plans and purposes.  In Romans 9 Paul distinguishes between Jews who trust in Jesus and those who trust in their earthly Israelite citzenship.   God's true Israel are those Jews that believe in Jesus.   They are the "Israel" within Israel.

 

Paul's appeal to the Romans in chapters 9,10 and 11 pertains to being a blessing to Israel by bringing the Gospel to them.  In chapters 1-8, Gentile salvation (which was a mystery in those days) is explained.  Chapters 9-11 are an appeal to be a blessing to Israel because it was through Israel's partial blindness inflicted upon them by God that Gentiles are able to enter the Kingdom of God by faith.

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Nebula, the term "God fearing gentiles" was used of those who were proselytes to Judism, as I understand. I found this on a Jewish site. Those were the ones who practiced Judism but had not been circumcised, I dimly remember.

Paul usually went to the synagogs first, and then went to the homes of believing gentiles.

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I agree that the land is only promised to the Jews by birth. But in the mellinnium the Jews will inherit the full borders promised Abe and the church will return and reign with Christ, as well. The believing Jews who survive armagheddon will populate the Promised Land, as I understand it. All of the promised land has never been occupied by the Jews to date. The only thing the church gets from Abe is being declared righteous by faith alone, and not by works of the law. Just my 2 cents.

Eph. 2:15 speaks of Christ abolishing the enmity, the law of commandments and ordinances. Since He fullfilled them, there is no more need of them, but He has written them on our hearts of flesh. So we still honor them as the schoolmaster that shows us our need of a Savior, showing us that no man is capable of keeping them perfectly as the law requires.

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Nebula- Jesus the anointed one-the promised Messiah from the OT was conceived by the Holy Spirit set apart for a special purpose fulfilling the spiritual promises to Abraham of the promise that all the families of the earth shall be blessed. The creation of the Holy Bible would be a part of that spiritual promised blessing as well.

Jesus was born of a divine nature by means of Mary His human mother but He was both God and man with a special spiritual essence not like any other person.

He was the Son of God. and His deity would effect the promises and prophecies from the Old Testament to a spiritual level.

We can obey laws and rituals forever but if God did not fulfill the promise of the coming of the Messiah and His subsequent sacrifice we would never be justified and have the potential to be saved.

 

I do not deny these things.

 

The debate is over the promise being "transferred" from "Israel" to "the Church", and that is an incorrect understanding of the covenants.

 

 

I don't quite understand the resistance to the idea of the promises being transferred to the Church of God.

 

All people can now share in the promises God made to Abraham through Jesus Gal 3:29 -that's a good thing.

 

God grafts all who become His servants into the family of Abraham. -that's good isn't it?-Romans 11:13

 

God's promises was never to be limited to a small ancient people-it extends into the future-and that future is within the church.

 

God chose Abraham to be His servant because God had a plan to offer salvation onto all of mankind. Abraham and the covenants were a crucial step reconciling all humanity to Himself.

Jesus and the Apostles regarded the promises made to Abraham as the foundation of their work.-Act 3:13, 25

 

I don;t see the wrong in understanding what they understood.

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Guest shiloh357

I don't quite understand the resistance to the idea of the promises being transferred to the Church of God.

 

The resistance is due to the fact that the Bible makes no such claims.  You are trying to infer a transference from Scriptures you are misinterpreting.

 

All people can now share in the promises God made to Abraham through Jesus Gal 3:29 -that's a good thing.

 

Right but that has nothing to do with Israel.  Galatians 3:29  pertains to Genesis 22:15-18.  

 

 

God grafts all who become His servants into the family of Abraham. -that's good isn't it?-Romans 11:13

 

You are grafted into participation WITH Israel in the blessings of Abraham.  But no promises made to the nation of Israel are transferred to the Church.

 

 

God's promises was never to be limited to a small ancient people-it extends into the future-and that future is within the church.

 

No, God has a prophetic future for Israel as well.  God did not transfer those promises to someone else.   The promises made to Israel will be fulfilled to Israel during the millennial reign of Christ.

God chose Abraham to be His servant because God had a plan to offer salvation onto all of mankind. Abraham and the covenants were a crucial step reconciling all humanity to Himself.

Jesus and the Apostles regarded the promises made to Abraham as the foundation of their work.-Act 3:13, 25

 

I don;t see the wrong in understanding what they understood.

 

God plan of blessing the nations through Abraham has NOTHING to do with transfering God's promises to Israel, to the Church/Gentiles. You are confusing issues.

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I don't quite understand the resistance to the idea of the promises being transferred to the Church of God.

 

Because there was no "transfer".

 

Jeremiah 31

31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar ; The LORD of hosts is His name : 36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever ." 37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD.

 

The word is clear - this New Covenant of which we belong was not with "the Church", it was with Israel.

 

We Gentiles, though, have been granted inclusion into this Covenant.

 

Isaiah 49:6 - He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel ; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

 

Amos 9:11-12-  "‘After these things I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, in order that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’ says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old."

 

Isaiah 11:10 - Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples ; And His resting place will be glorious.

 

Romans 15

For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers, 9 and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy ; as it is written, "THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME." 10 Again he says, "REJOICE, O GENTILES, WITH HIS PEOPLE." 11 And again, "PRAISE THE LORD ALL YOU GENTILES, AND LET ALL THE PEOPLES PRAISE HIM." 12 Again Isaiah says, "THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE, AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES, IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES HOPE."

 

 

The idea that the blessings of Abraham have been "transferred" is to believe that God has forsaken His people Israel - which is not true. (Refer back to Jer. 31:35-37)

 

 

Going back to Romans 11, the "church" is not a new tree that Gentiles and Jews are grafted into. It's the same tree that was always there! Believing Gentiles are grafted into the people of God. But for the believing Jew, it is the tree they always belonged to.

 

 

Thus the promise was not "transferred." Rather, the believers are "enjoined" into the promise.

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You do know that Jesus was the God of Abraham-He was the one that made the covenants with those in the OT.

He was the word from the beginning.

So now in the NT we have Abraham's God, Jesus Christ , the same person who thundered the 10 Commandments and made agreements with Noah and Abraham going back to Adam.

Jesus is the sole ultimate and highest authority on scripture, the inspiration behind it. 

If He is magnifying the terms and enhancing the spiritual elements of OT agreements He has that power.God's plan has progressed past the physical and has now enter into a higher plane.

We have Jesus leading the way with all His covenants transformed into a greater way towards perfection.

He is the master and the keeper of the covenants. 

As Paul says those who are Christ's by faith are indeed also the children of Abraham.

It's hard to let go for some people that their rights and claims are not to be shared by all.

Scripture interprets itself. 

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