Devoted more to the Scriptures than to the God of the Scriptures?

[enoob57]

yes and I am saying that isn't possible because the Bible IS doctrine at its core.   You can't read the Bible for doctrine and not know God better.

1 Tim 4:16

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in

doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

KJV

Which doctrine?

The Catholic doctrine? The Presbyterian doctrine? The Lutheran doctrine? The Baptist doctrine? The Pentecostal doctrine?

The predestination doctrine? The free-will doctrine? The Universalism doctrine?

 

Or how about the doctrine that puts "what you think" above "how you love"?

Denominational divisions tend to be more centered around tradiitons than essential teachings.   Most Christians are united over the essentials but differ  over secondary things that relate mostly to traditions within those groups, sprinkling, instruments or not, speaking in toungues, eschatology, music styles, Calvinsim vs. Arminianism, etc.

Yeah what He said

I would like to add-> that as the creation itself, formed by His Word, was the start in God's infinite realties

and was to be a descriptive pointer to that which can be contained in thought formed from beginnings... it is

still a directional pointer to Him Who Alone As Father, Son and Spirit 'IS' The 'ALL' and The Word conjoined with

The Holy Spirit takes us in that narrow path to Him... we are not to despise the doctrine of it's leading as it

sets us in the vehicle of faith whereby we can cross the void into His Marvelous Kingdom of Light! Love, Steven

[Guest Butero]

What does "for in them ye think ye have eternal life" mean to you?

 

The religious crowd thought that because they were "Abraham's seed" they had eternal life.  It was something they had been taught, and they thought it was found in scripture.  It shows how ignorant they were about what was really in the scriptures, because if they had been great students of scripture, they would have seen Jesus in them.  I have run into people all over the place that will claim the Bible teaches something it doesn't.  They believe things are in the Bible from second hand knowledge.  Jesus told the religious leaders they need to search the scriptures, because if they do, they will see Jesus in them. 

[nebula]

What does "for in them ye think ye have eternal life" mean to you?

 

The religious crowd thought that because they were "Abraham's seed" they had eternal life.

 

Where do you find any mention of "Abraham's seed" in this particular discourse?

 

Link to John 5 - KJV

[Guest Butero]

Where do you find "Abraham's seed" in this particular discourse?"

 

I don't.  I find it in the Bible.  It is the reason Jesus gives as to why the Pharisees thought they had eternal life.  I am referencing John 8:31-42.  I would also add to that Luke 3:8.  They did not think they had eternal life because they studied the scriptures and thought that would save them.  A lot of the Jewish people thought that being descendants of Abraham would automatically save them.

[Guest Butero]

If everyone read the Bible as Gods disclosing of himself to man, rather than a book of rules and regs, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

This is a very enlightening comment.  What this is all about is people that don't want anyone using the Bible to show certain things are right and certain things are wrong.  We are supposed to simply look at scripture as "God disclosing himself to man."  It doesn't work that way.  We need to look to scripture to determine what is right and wrong in God's eyes, so we will know how to live a life pleasing to our creator.  Ecclesiastes tells us the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep his commandments.  The Bible does reveal God to us, but it also gives us instructions.  What the author of the OP is doing is coming against using the Bible as a guide for how we should live.  Everyone is supposed to just live according to their own "relationship" with God, which is really nothing more than going by their own feelings.  If something feels right to one person, then they are free to do it and nobody should say it is wrong.  If they pull out a scripture showing it is wrong, then we must conclude they care more about knowing scripture than the God of scripture.  This whole thing is a deception conjured up by people who are lawless. 

[nebula]

 

Where do you find "Abraham's seed" in this particular discourse?"

 

I don't.  I find it in the Bible.  It is the reason Jesus gives as to why the Pharisees thought they had eternal life.  I am referencing John 8:31-42.  I would also add to that Luke 3:8.  They did not think they had eternal life because they studied the scriptures and thought that would save them.  A lot of the Jewish people thought that being descendants of Abraham would automatically save them.

 

 

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free . 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou , Ye shall be made free? 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou , Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you , Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free , ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

 

1. Jesus was not speaking to "the Pharisees" at this point.

2. The people are the ones who brought up the "Abraham's seed" issue.

3. There is no mention of "eternal life" in this - rather being "made free".

 

 

Honestly, Butero, you are doing a better job exemplifying the problem rather than refuting the claim.

 

Not only did you revise history to fit your belief (claiming that the Pharisees did not know the Scriptures), but now you are taking a point mentioned in one conversation and using it to prove the claim you made about the point mentioned in the other.

 

This is not the way to defend Scripture.

[nebula]

If everyone read the Bible as Gods disclosing of himself to man, rather than a book of rules and regs, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

This is a very enlightening comment.  What this is all about is people that don't want anyone using the Bible to show certain things are right and certain things are wrong.  We are supposed to simply look at scripture as "God disclosing himself to man."  It doesn't work that way.  We need to look to scripture to determine what is right and wrong in God's eyes, so we will know how to live a life pleasing to our creator.  Ecclesiastes tells us the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep his commandments.  The Bible does reveal God to us, but it also gives us instructions.  What the author of the OP is doing is coming against using the Bible as a guide for how we should live.  Everyone is supposed to just live according to their own "relationship" with God, which is really nothing more than going by their own feelings.  If something feels right to one person, then they are free to do it and nobody should say it is wrong.  If they pull out a scripture showing it is wrong, then we must conclude they care more about knowing scripture than the God of scripture.  This whole thing is a deception conjured up by people who are lawless. 

 

I am sorry you would rather live off of "the knowledge of good and evil" rather than off of "life."

 

Jesus said that all the Law and Prophets hang on the two commands of loving God and loving your neighbor. While "the rules and regs" are valid guidelines for tangible expressions of what loving God and others look like, they are not the essence of the heart of God.

 

Anyone who preaches the Cross as a means of justifying sin is wrong; but likewise, anyone who preaches the Cross yet still claims your salvation is up to your ability to do what is "right" is likewise wrong. The Cross is about dying to the flesh and the inward transformation into righteousness, not about "saying and doing the right things". And if you think I'm preaching "doing what is right in your own eyes", you don't know me at all, but are rather putting on me a bias of control and manipulation..

[Guest Butero]

It is not an either or choice of "living off the knowledge of good and evil rather than off of life."  The Bible states that God's people are destroyed because of a lack of knowledge.  We need to know what God says in his Word.  Jesus was asked what the great commandment was, and he narrowed it down to 2, because if you follow them, you will be following the entire law.  You won't sin against God or your neighbor.  He wasn't doing away with the other laws.  We are saved because we believe in Jesus, but we cannot continue to live in sin and remain saved.  There are lists in the Bible of specific sins that will guarantee we will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  It is good to know what those things are. 

[ajchurney]

It is not an either or choice of "living off the knowledge of good and evil rather than off of life."  The Bible states that God's people are destroyed because of a lack of knowledge.  We need to know what God says in his Word.  Jesus was asked what the great commandment was, and he narrowed it down to 2, because if you follow them, you will be following the entire law.  You won't sin against God or your neighbor.  He wasn't doing away with the other laws.  We are saved because we believe in Jesus, but we cannot continue to live in sin and remain saved.  There are lists in the Bible of specific sins that will guarantee we will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  It is good to know what those things are. 

There are two extreme sides of the fleshly nature, like two deep ditches on either side of the road of real spritual life. Those ditches are extreme license and extreme legalism. Hedonists live with extreme license (no rules), and radical muslims (religionists) in extreme legalism, for example. License is an aberration of the truth of freedom in God, and legalism is an aberration of obedience to God. Hedonists are irreligious, and legalists worship rules, not the true Person of God. Both are false extremes, and each one hates and despises the other.

The truth is that he whom the Son sets free is truly free, and he who abides in the true love and grace of God breaks no true law of God as he so walks. Being legalistic does not make one spiritual, and neither does being hedonistic make one free, but both are bondage to the spirit of this world, and slaves to the fleshly nature. Christians who lean hard in one direction or the other tend to despise greatly the one who leans in the opposite direction, but both are carnal and not truly walking by the Holy Spirit alone and His grace alone. 

The scriptures are neither legalistic or hedonistic, but represent the way, truth, and life only. People with a soul bent in either extreme as described will then attempt to bend the scripture to their own understandings and preference, and wrongly do so in every case. Here again, the problem is never the scripture, but the bias with which one comes to it and reads into it according to fleshly and carnal mindsets

Edited March 8, 2014 by ajchurney

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Everyone...

     Thanks neb,the OP is an interesting take this Micha Barnett(was that her name)has on the Jews rejecting Christ.....bottom line.I disagree with her interpretation that the Jews living under the law were more focused on reading the Sciptures than seeking God.......I do not think that reading the Scriptures could ever lead anyone away from God but having a hardened heart can & not "receiving" Gods Word through the study of Scripture...it was not that the Pharisees,religious experts & teachers of the law had a barrier between them & God because of the Scriptures but because they were doing everything of their own effort trying to fulfill the law....there they were ,face to face with the very One they had been waiting for & had their hopes on & they could not see Who He was.....blind eyes & deaf ears by the god of this world

      This is a very good example of trying to reconcile oneself to God.....without Jesus,no one can come to the Father....the Scriptures & the law did not cause the hardening of their hearts.....the enemy did,that is why Jesus called them a brood of vipers,sons of satan

                                                                                                                                   With love-in Christ,Kwik