Predestination vs free choice

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Interesting subject...

 

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

 

How do you read this? Just curious...

Very simple.   Notice what is says we were chosen to be:   We were chosen to be holy and blame.ess before Him in love AND we are predestined to the adoption as  sons.   This is talking about what God chosen, before the foundation of the world, that Christians should be come.  it is not saying that God chose who would become Christians.  The word "predestine" means "to set off beforehand" and refers to what God has predestined for believers.  

 

The word "adoption" can be kind of confusing if we don’t understand what it meant in the first century.  It means, “to set as an adult.” Paul is using, as an illustration, the Roman practice of adopting a son and then not only bequeathing him all of his possessions, but giving him his civil status as a adult citizen; Thus God takes a believing sinner, regenerates him, and by means of this makes him His “born” child.  Then He takes this child and places him in a legal position as an adult son. We thus become joint-heirs with Christ, having been raised to a civil status as adult sons, in which we become heirs of God, inheriting jointly with Christ all that He possesses as an heir of God the Father by virtue of His Sonship and work on the Cross.

 

Simply put, before the foundation of the world, God already the plan of salvation figured out.  And in that plan, He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless before Him in love and in doing so He predestined (chose beforehand) us to the adoption as sons.

 

Could David  have lost salvation ?

 

That has nothing to do with what I said above.  If you want to respond to me, then respond to the substance of my post instead of asking me questions that have nothing to do with anything I have said.

[Guest DRS81]

Simply put, before the foundation of the world, God already the plan of salvation figured out.  And in that plan, He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless before Him in love and in doing so He predestined (chose beforehand) us to the adoption as sons.

 

Ok, I see what you're saying. When you say chose beforehand (Eph 1:4), before the foundation of the world..God is talking about how he chose people/humanity in general to be together with Christ. In this instance God is specifically talking about salvation and the bridge to salvation. He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless, but it's up to the nonbeliever to BECOME a christian by repenting. Am I close?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Simply put, before the foundation of the world, God already the plan of salvation figured out.  And in that plan, He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless before Him in love and in doing so He predestined (chose beforehand) us to the adoption as sons.

 

Ok, I see what you're saying. When you say chose beforehand (Eph 1:4), before the foundation of the world..God is talking about how he chose people/humanity in general to be together with Christ. In this instance God is specifically talking about salvation and the bridge to salvation. He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless, but it's up to the nonbeliever to BECOME a christian by repenting. Am I close?

 

;Yes.   God does not choose who will or will not be saved.    He has chosen or predestinated what Christians will become AFTER they are saved.  He has a goal for Christians that He set in place before the foundation of the world.

 

Every place that predestination is used in the Bible, it is always connected to God's plans for believers and their service in Him.  It is NEVER used  in connection with who can or or cannot be saved.

[OldSchool2]

... Hence, I conclude that the title of the thread is actually misleading, in that there is no predestination "vs." freewill, but only a right understanding of how these two biblical realities co-exist and intersect. We have freewill, and God predestines according to our freewill and His eternal foreknowledge. He is Creator, and we are the created, He the potter, and we the clay, yet living clay with real freewill choice. His foreknowledge of our choice does not then make the choice invalid or illusory. It is simply a matter of His vastly superior point of reference in comparison to ours.

 

Eternal blessings in Christ Jesus!

Andy

 

 

... Was Pharoh predestined and did he make a choice to repent

I recall several verses in Exodus where Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart as well as an equal number of verses that states God hardened Pharaoh's heart, yet there was no attempt to reconcile the two views.

This seems to suggest the two do "co-exist and intersect" in ways a Western mindset perhaps doesn't fully comprehend.

[ajchurney]

 

I recall several verses in Exodus where Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart as well as an equal number of verses that states God hardened Pharaoh's heart, yet there was no attempt to reconcile the two views.

This seems to suggest the two do "co-exist and intersect" in ways a Western mindset perhaps doesn't fully comprehend.

 

Perhaps the idea of "He gave them over" in Rom 1 brings light here. Both are true, so both are written.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Was Pharoh predestined and did he make a choice to repent 

 

Pharoah was used by God. He was not predestined to do what he did.   God hardened Pharoah's heart AFTER Pharoah hardened his own heart. The Pharoah is an example of how God uses some people in a way that reveals his power.

 

God did not create Pharoah to destroy him.  He did not bring Pharoah into existence in order to force him to harden his heart the play the role that he did in the Exodus.  Pharoah was already hardened and proved himself unwilling to repent and so God used Pharoah to demonstrate his own power.

 

God hardens and softens the hearts people depending on that persons willingness to be hardened or softened.   If I take a block of clay and a block of wax and place them out in the hot August sun, the sun will harden the clay and soften the wax.   The sun doesn't choose to harden one and soften the other.   They respond to the heat of the sun by virtue of their own special properties.

 

In the same way, when we are confronted by God we can either raise our fist in defiance or we can bow the knee in humble submission.  That is our choice.  God doesn't determine the response; we make that choice.  God responds to our choices accordingly, with either judgment or mercy.   In many cases, sin has built-in consequences.  For those who choose continued separation from God, eternity separated from Him is the consequence of that choice.

[OldSchool2]

Was Pharoh predestined and did he make a choice to repent

Pharoah was used by God. He was not predestined to do what he did.   God hardened Pharoah's heart AFTER Pharoah hardened his own heart ...

I recall several verses in Exodus where Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart as well as an equal number of verses that states God hardened Pharaoh's heart, yet there was no attempt to reconcile the two views.

This seems to suggest the two do "co-exist and intersect" in ways a Western mindset perhaps doesn't fully comprehend.

Perhaps the idea of "He gave them over" in Rom 1 brings light here. Both are true, so both are written.

OK, but God stepping aside by withdrawing His grace -- or simply leaving sinners to their own devices -- is much more passive an act than actually hardening someone's heart, regardless of who does what first.

Exodus 7:3

But I shall harden his heart, and shall multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt ...

Exodus 14:4

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD ...

Then there's Exodus 9:16 and Romans 9:17 where God both raises up Pharaoh and hardens his heart for His glory.

See "Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart?"

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-pharaoh.html

[Bible_Gazer]

I think Jeremiah had a choice.

His job was predestinated.

Did Jesus have a choice ?

Yes

Hebrews 10:9

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God.

He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

[Mcgyver]

 

Interesting subject...

 

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

 

How do you read this? Just curious...

Very simple.   Notice what is says we were chosen to be:   We were chosen to be holy and blame.ess before Him in love AND we are predestined to the adoption as  sons.   This is talking about what God chosen, before the foundation of the world, that Christians should be come.  it is not saying that God chose who would become Christians.  The word "predestine" means "to set off beforehand" and refers to what God has predestined for believers.  

 

The word "adoption" can be kind of confusing if we don’t understand what it meant in the first century.  It means, “to set as an adult.” Paul is using, as an illustration, the Roman practice of adopting a son and then not only bequeathing him all of his possessions, but giving him his civil status as a adult citizen; Thus God takes a believing sinner, regenerates him, and by means of this makes him His “born” child.  Then He takes this child and places him in a legal position as an adult son. We thus become joint-heirs with Christ, having been raised to a civil status as adult sons, in which we become heirs of God, inheriting jointly with Christ all that He possesses as an heir of God the Father by virtue of His Sonship and work on the Cross.

 

Simply put, before the foundation of the world, God already the plan of salvation figured out.  And in that plan, He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless before Him in love and in doing so He predestined (chose beforehand) us to the adoption as sons.

 

 

Thank you Shiloh, and also thanks to Openly Curious and Lek who also replied...

 

I am inclined to agree that God does not predestinate certain people to be saved or lost...for that would seemingly fly in the face of the scripture that tells us: The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

 

However, I do have a couple of follow up questions (and I'm not concerned about debating, but rather your thoughts on the matter)

 

The first question is this: Do you think that God in His omniscience knows who will respond or reject the gospel call?

 

The second question is one that I posted in another thread and would like to re-post here for comment concerning "The son of perdition":

 

John 17:11-12 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NKJV)

 

I submit the following for consideration and comment:

 

1) One of the twelve was certain to be doomed in order that scripture would be fulfilled. (Ps 41:9, Zech.11:12, et.al)

 

2) That this plan was put into place from the time that man fell in the garden (Gen 3:15)

 

3) That God Himself ordained that Messiah would be betrayed and given over to the executioner

 

4) That the cross was necessary and unavoidable in order to complete His redemptive plan for mankind. (Ps 22, Isaiah 53, et.al)

 

5) And all this from the "foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:19-22)

 

So then, it would appear that God predestined one of the twelve to be lost that Messianic scripture would be fulfilled...How is this reconciled (do you think) with the previous assertions?

[Sevenseas]

I'm jumping in here, but I have read some of the posts...not all, but of course I'm familar with the two positions

 

I don't believe every little thing we do is pre-ordained.  I don't believe if I stub my toe God directed it to be so.  He saw it coming, but He did not make it happen.

 

I know people who think that every single little thing is God behind it....YET, we read in scripture that we have free choice so how do we reconcile that?

 

And we read that those who are Christ's are 'predestined' in that God knows even before they are born who are His..."I knew you in the womb" being an example of such

 

Have I made bad choices?  Yes I have made bad choices.

 

Did God want me to make those bad choices?

 

No God did not want me to make those bad choices..

 

Key word:  choice

 

God does not force us but He does know who will respond to his offer of salvation through His Son.

 

Have you ever been 'warned' by God not to do something and you do it anyway?

 

I have.  It's called free choice.

 

We choose but God knows what we will choose.  

 

However, some vessels are made for honor and some for dishonor.

 

So the debate continues.

 

But I do know that I do not believe we get up every day and exercise some kind of cosmic determination of every single thing we will do that day.