TWO comings TWO raptures

[tevans9129]

 

Salty, apparently you do not wish to answer my questions and/or address my points in the space that I leave for you and since I am not too keen on searching through all of your comments trying to find an answer that may or may not fit, I am going to limit my questions to one per post in order to minimize my misunderstanding.  Starting with questions which I have previously asked and have not seen your answer.

 

"Yes there is Scripture support of where our Lord Jesus goes when He returns."

 

2) Was my comment about Jesus’ return to earth, or was it about Him coming down from heaven to call believers up to meet Him in the air?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

 

3) Can you point out where there is anything in those verses about Jesus coming to earth?

 

4) Does it make sense that Jesus would come to earth to call believers to meet Him in the air?

 

 

It doesn't need to be included in 1 Thess.4, for the Zechariah 14 Scripture about His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives was already written long before.

 

6) Can you quote one verse in Zech 14 that is directed toward Christians?

[tevans9129]

 

 

Salty, apparently you do not wish to answer my questions and/or address my points in the space that I leave for you and since I am not too keen on searching through all of your comments trying to find an answer that may or may not fit, I am going to limit my questions to one per post in order to minimize my misunderstanding.  Starting with questions which I have previously asked and have not seen your answer.

 

"Yes there is Scripture support of where our Lord Jesus goes when He returns."

 

2) Was my comment about Jesus’ return to earth, or was it about Him coming down from heaven to call believers up to meet Him in the air?

Apostle Paul was scholar of the Old Testament, so no since in implying that he didn't know about that Zech.14 Scripture either.

 

7) Where did I imply that Paul knew nothing about Zech 14?

[tevans9129]

 

Salty

 

"There are no verses about physically escaping the tribulation,"

 

8) OK, to whom and for what are the following verses addressing?

 

8a) I am not speaking of tribulations and persecutions, I am speaking of God’s wrath as stated in scripture.

 

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

 

8b) When is the “day of wrath” of God and what scripture are you using?

 

Edited August 18, 2014 by tevans9129

[tevans9129]

 

 

Salty

 

"There are no verses about physically escaping the tribulation,"

 

8) OK, to whom and for what are the following verses addressing?

 

8a) I am not speaking of tribulations and persecutions, I am speaking of God’s wrath as stated in scripture.

 

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

 

8b) When is the “day of wrath” of God and what scripture are you using?

 

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

8c) When is this “hour of testing”, who is it promised to, how is it accomplished and can you quote scripture as it is written supporting your answers?

[tevans9129]

 

 

 

Salty

 

"There are no verses about physically escaping the tribulation,"

 

8) OK, to whom and for what are the following verses addressing?

 

8a) I am not speaking of tribulations and persecutions, I am speaking of God’s wrath as stated in scripture.

 

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

 

8b) When is the “day of wrath” of God and what scripture are you using?

 

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

8c) When is this “hour of testing”, who is it promised to, how is it accomplished and can you quote scripture as it is written supporting your answers?

 

[tevans9129]

 

Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation.

There's a clear distinction between tribulation and God's wrath / judgment.  People tend to use those words interchangeably when it concerns end times prophecy and obfuscate their meanings by turning it into basically a "certain time of yucky".  Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.  At least that's been my experience.

 

1) Paul said,

 

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?

 

1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

As I see it, God's judgment / wrath is in the seven trumpets / vials of the seventh seal.  The first six seals are events that include the great tribulation,not judgments, not wrath.

 

2) Did Jesus not say that the great tribulation would be the last 3 ½ years of Daniel’s 70^th week? If that is true, then how could the “first six seals” be in the GT?

 

I think we can all agree that in the world we will have tribulation and at some point it will turn into a great tribulation, and that we are not appointed for wrath.  Substitute "tribulation" with "persecution" and I think its a better read since the meaning of "tribulation" has become convoluted.

 

3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?

Persecution is something believers should expect to encounter, not escape.

 

4) The Christians that I know would never suggest that we are not to suffer, tribulations/persecutions but we do believe the promises of God that those that will be alive in the last days will not suffer the wrath of God as outlined in Rev 6 – 18. For those that do not want to claim the promises that God has made, you have my prayers.

 

5) If I may ask a couple of questions….do you believe that God is a just and fair God?

 

6) If you do, I have the following question, there were Bible believing twins in the last days, one twin died in an accident and was buried, a few days later, the tribulations and wrath as outlined in Revelation began. The second twin had to endure seven years of pure hell on earth. Do you think a just and fair God would consider that as being fair?

 

The distinction needs to be made.

 

7) Do you believe there is a very distinct difference in tribulations/ persecutions and the great tribulation and the wrath of God as spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to Daniel’s 70th week?

 

8) Does v16,17 seem to suggest that God’s wrath actually began in chapter 6?

 

Revelation 6:16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

Revelation 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

9) I have asked Salty this question but he is not big on answering questions so perhaps you can, in your opinion, what is the reason for the tribulation period in the last days as spoken of in Revelation?

 

[Last Daze]

 

 

Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation.

There's a clear distinction between tribulation and God's wrath / judgment.  People tend to use those words interchangeably when it concerns end times prophecy and obfuscate their meanings by turning it into basically a "certain time of yucky".  Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.  At least that's been my experience.

 

1) Paul said,

 

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?

 

1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

As I see it, God's judgment / wrath is in the seven trumpets / vials of the seventh seal.  The first six seals are events that include the great tribulation,not judgments, not wrath.

 

2) Did Jesus not say that the great tribulation would be the last 3 ½ years of Daniel’s 70^th week? If that is true, then how could the “first six seals” be in the GT?

 

I think we can all agree that in the world we will have tribulation and at some point it will turn into a great tribulation, and that we are not appointed for wrath.  Substitute "tribulation" with "persecution" and I think its a better read since the meaning of "tribulation" has become convoluted.

 

3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?

Persecution is something believers should expect to encounter, not escape.

 

4) The Christians that I know would never suggest that we are not to suffer, tribulations/persecutions but we do believe the promises of God that those that will be alive in the last days will not suffer the wrath of God as outlined in Rev 6 – 18. For those that do not want to claim the promises that God has made, you have my prayers.

 

5) If I may ask a couple of questions….do you believe that God is a just and fair God?

 

6) If you do, I have the following question, there were Bible believing twins in the last days, one twin died in an accident and was buried, a few days later, the tribulations and wrath as outlined in Revelation began. The second twin had to endure seven years of pure hell on earth. Do you think a just and fair God would consider that as being fair?

 

The distinction needs to be made.

 

7) Do you believe there is a very distinct difference in tribulations/ persecutions and the great tribulation and the wrath of God as spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to Daniel’s 70th week?

 

8) Does v16,17 seem to suggest that God’s wrath actually began in chapter 6?

 

Revelation 6:16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

Revelation 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

9) I have asked Salty this question but he is not big on answering questions so perhaps you can, in your opinion, what is the reason for the tribulation period in the last days as spoken of in Revelation?

 

 

 

Your reply supports the notion that unless basic terms and definitions are established up front, the conversation winds up being pretty meaningless.

 

1) You missed my point completely, probably from the misconception that the seven year covenant is "pure hell on earth" per your #6.

 

2) The great tribulation is referring to as a time of persecution of believers.  “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Matt 24:9  The great tribulation has nothing to do with God's wrath or judgment.  The great tribulation starts at the fifth seal (near the middle of the 7 year covenant) when the the false prophet issues the "worship or die" ultimatum and ends at the sixth seal with the rapture.

 

3) Too vague of a question without establishing definitions.

 

4) I think you are either confused on what God's wrath is or what I said.

 

5) Really?

 

6) Sounds like you're confused on what happens during the 7 year covenant.  As for your sense of fairness...What is that to you?  You should follow Jesus. "So Peter seeing him [John] said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus *said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” John 21:21-22, and don't forget about the laborers in the vineyard in Matt 20.  I think your concept of fairness needs work.

 

7) During the 7 year covenant, there is a distinct difference between the great tribulation that believers will endure and the wrath of God.  Yes. 

 

8) Actually, chapter 8, when the seventh seal is opened.

 

9) Define "tribulation period in the last days" as you understand it.

 

When you see the seven year covenant made, and the church is still here, what will you make of it?  Will you double-down on the pre-trib view?  It doesn't really matter.  What matters is that you discern the signs and  refuse to worship the false prophet.  I would focus on that and not the rapture.  We have no say in when the rapture will happen but we do have a say in whether we worship the false prophet or not.  Priorities.

[Guest Jesse]

All chistians believe in jesus the Son of God,and so does satan.

 

jesse.

[Salty]

Salty, apparently you do not wish to answer my questions and/or address my points in the space that I leave for you and since I am not too keen on searching through all of your comments trying to find an answer that may or may not fit, I am going to limit my questions to one per post in order to minimize my misunderstanding.  Starting with questions which I have previously asked and have not seen your answer.

 

"Yes there is Scripture support of where our Lord Jesus goes when He returns."

 

2) Was my comment about Jesus’ return to earth, or was it about Him coming down from heaven to call believers up to meet Him in the air?

 

I've addressed all points you've raised, and pointed you to the Scriptures on the matter, more Scriptures about the subject than you include in your limited question scope. Sounds like you're wanting to do a bowing out.

 

1 - Where on earth did Jesus ascend to Heaven from? Where's that written?

 

2 - Where does Jesus' feet touch down on earth at His second coming? Where's that written?

 

 

3 - Who was Apostle Paul speaking to in the following Ephesians 2 Scripture?

 

Eph.2

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

 

4 - Which "saints" was Apostle Paul speaking of in the following verse?

 

1 Thess.3

13 To the end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

[Guest Jesse]

Zechariah 14:4 ***And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives***,

which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

jesse.