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ARGOSY

PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

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Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

Who are God ancients ?

 

When does God roar out of Zion ?

 

Hu :hmmm:

 

Psalm 50

King James Version (KJV)

50 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

 

Isaiah 24:19-23

King James Version (KJV)

 

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

 

 

Does this sound like matthew 24 1 Theso 4 :clap: rev 19

 

No... sorry no cigar   :mgclown:

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 Matthew's post-tribulation gathering of the elect in the sky is of Jewish Christians only? :hmmm:  Or, if this seems unsound, are we to deny that the gathering takes place in the sky at all, as some pre-tribbers do, claiming that the atmospheric terms used are merely symbolic of a broad, earthly gathering of Jews? If the text could not be explained literally, a symbolic view would be called for, but as there will definitely be a literal gathering of Christians in and from the sky, no one has any right to suggest this text is anything but that glorious event.

 

The "pre-tribulation rapture" is merely being gathered in the wilderness due to the fall of Mystery Babylon.  If you have seen the TV show Walking Dead, that is "the pre-trib rapture" - not flying away to heaven. 

 

Exodus 19

 

And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

Did God literally give Israelites wings to fly from Egypt?!  Of course not.  It is symbolic, but being in the wilderness is less so.

 

The "post -tribulation rapture" will be what it is.  When we die, I guess we fly up to the "tunnel of light".  Who knows.

 

Trumpet 1 is God's judgment with hail and fire.

Trumpet 2 is the fall of Mystery Babylon.

Trumpet 3 is the fall of "Mystery Edom"  (basically, whenever "Death" is referred to in Revelation, it is always says "Death and Hades" - Babylon is 'Death', Edom is 'Hades') the "burning torch" is equivalent to the "burning mountain" Jer. 51:25

Trumpet 4 (skipping this one since it means a few things)

Trumpet 5 5 months of 'locusts'/  1st woe

 

   ["after the tribulation of those days" we are gathered in the wilderness - Christ is deliberately generic because it's cyclical, there's no way to have 1 exact sequence)

 

Trumpet 6 starts the arrival of Christ (as per Psalms 68:17)  with a time-frame of 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour.  Start of 2nd woe

 

Then the beast has 1260 days (the end of which is the fall of 7 headed Babylon).  The 2 witnesses lie dead for 3.5 days.  End of 2nd woe.  If you added 490 more days (Dan 9's 70 weeks), you'd get Dan 8's 2300 days, when the "sanctuary is cleansed" (which is why Dan 9's 490 days is about "anointing a holy place").  This starts the 2nd fall of babylon, fall of edom, (beast and false prophet), the tribulation of "those days" where people are gathered again.  It's these repentant people who issue the "call to restore Jerusalem".  The people who were gathered in the wilderness the 1st time and didn't enter into worship of the beast system that arose would be the "Philadelphia church".

 

For the repentant, it starts the 490 day count.  For the non-repentant, it starts an unspecified amount of time (the "millenium") to suffer the 7 plagues.  This is a difficult concept to describe, which is why the 3rd woe is not exactly spelled out very well.

Edited by tranquil

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 Matthew's post-tribulation gathering of the elect in the sky is of Jewish Christians only? :hmmm:  Or, if this seems unsound, are we to deny that the gathering takes place in the sky at all, as some pre-tribbers do, claiming that the atmospheric terms used are merely symbolic of a broad, earthly gathering of Jews? If the text could not be explained literally, a symbolic view would be called for, but as there will definitely be a literal gathering of Christians in and from the sky, no one has any right to suggest this text is anything but that glorious event.

 

The "pre-tribulation rapture" is merely being gathered in the wilderness due to the fall of Mystery Babylon.  If you have seen the TV show Walking Dead, that is "the pre-trib rapture" - not flying away to heaven. 

 

Exodus 19

 

And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

Did God literally give Israelites wings to fly from Egypt?!  Of course not.  It is symbolic, but being in the wilderness is less so.

 

The "post -tribulation rapture" will be what it is.  When we die, I guess we fly up to the "tunnel of light".  Who knows.

 

Trumpet 1 is God's judgment with hail and fire.

Trumpet 2 is the fall of Mystery Babylon.

Trumpet 3 is the fall of "Mystery Edom"  (basically, whenever "Death" is referred to in Revelation, it is always says "Death and Hades" - Babylon is 'Death', Edom is 'Hades') the "burning torch" is equivalent to the "burning mountain" Jer. 51:25

Trumpet 4 (skipping this one since it means a few things)

Trumpet 5 5 months of 'locusts'/  1st woe

 

   ["after the tribulation of those days" we are gathered in the wilderness - Christ is deliberately generic because it's cyclical, there's no way to have 1 exact sequence)

 

Trumpet 6 starts the arrival of Christ (as per Psalms 68:17)  with a time-frame of 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour.  Start of 2nd woe

 

Then the beast has 1260 days (the end of which is the fall of 7 headed Babylon).  The 2 witnesses lie dead for 3.5 days.  End of 2nd woe.  If you added 490 more days (Dan 9's 70 weeks), you'd get Dan 8's 2300 days, when the "sanctuary is cleansed" (which is why Dan 9's 490 days is about "anointing a holy place").  This starts the 2nd fall of babylon, fall of edom, (beast and false prophet), the tribulation of "those days" where people are gathered again.  It's these repentant people who issue the "call to restore Jerusalem".  The people who were gathered in the wilderness the 1st time and didn't enter into worship of the beast system that arose would be the "Philadelphia church".

 

For the repentant, it starts the 490 day count.  For the non-repentant, it starts an unspecified amount of time (the "millenium") to suffer the 7 plagues.  This is a difficult concept to describe, which is why the 3rd woe is not exactly spelled out very well.

 

you mix up the 70th week which has already past   with revelation anyhow i am post trib 

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Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

Who are God ancients ?

 

When does God roar out of Zion ?

 

Hu :hmmm:

 

Psalm 50

King James Version (KJV)

50 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

 

Isaiah 24:19-23

King James Version (KJV)

 

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

 

 

Does this sound like matthew 24 1 Theso 4 :clap: rev 19

 

No... sorry no cigar   :mgclown:

 

lets see shall we 

 

 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

 

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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 Matthew's post-tribulation gathering of the elect in the sky is of Jewish Christians only? :hmmm:  Or, if this seems unsound, are we to deny that the gathering takes place in the sky at all, as some pre-tribbers do, claiming that the atmospheric terms used are merely symbolic of a broad, earthly gathering of Jews? If the text could not be explained literally, a symbolic view would be called for, but as there will definitely be a literal gathering of Christians in and from the sky, no one has any right to suggest this text is anything but that glorious event.

 

The "pre-tribulation rapture" is merely being gathered in the wilderness due to the fall of Mystery Babylon.  If you have seen the TV show Walking Dead, that is "the pre-trib rapture" - not flying away to heaven. 

 

Exodus 19

 

And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

Did God literally give Israelites wings to fly from Egypt?!  Of course not.  It is symbolic, but being in the wilderness is less so.

 

The "post -tribulation rapture" will be what it is.  When we die, I guess we fly up to the "tunnel of light".  Who knows.

 

Trumpet 1 is God's judgment with hail and fire.

Trumpet 2 is the fall of Mystery Babylon.

Trumpet 3 is the fall of "Mystery Edom"  (basically, whenever "Death" is referred to in Revelation, it is always says "Death and Hades" - Babylon is 'Death', Edom is 'Hades') the "burning torch" is equivalent to the "burning mountain" Jer. 51:25

Trumpet 4 (skipping this one since it means a few things)

Trumpet 5 5 months of 'locusts'/  1st woe

 

   ["after the tribulation of those days" we are gathered in the wilderness - Christ is deliberately generic because it's cyclical, there's no way to have 1 exact sequence)

 

Trumpet 6 starts the arrival of Christ (as per Psalms 68:17)  with a time-frame of 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour.  Start of 2nd woe

 

Then the beast has 1260 days (the end of which is the fall of 7 headed Babylon).  The 2 witnesses lie dead for 3.5 days.  End of 2nd woe.  If you added 490 more days (Dan 9's 70 weeks), you'd get Dan 8's 2300 days, when the "sanctuary is cleansed" (which is why Dan 9's 490 days is about "anointing a holy place").  This starts the 2nd fall of babylon, fall of edom, (beast and false prophet), the tribulation of "those days" where people are gathered again.  It's these repentant people who issue the "call to restore Jerusalem".  The people who were gathered in the wilderness the 1st time and didn't enter into worship of the beast system that arose would be the "Philadelphia church".

 

For the repentant, it starts the 490 day count.  For the non-repentant, it starts an unspecified amount of time (the "millenium") to suffer the 7 plagues.  This is a difficult concept to describe, which is why the 3rd woe is not exactly spelled out very well.

 

you mix up the 70th week which has already past   with revelation anyhow i am post trib 

 

Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet 

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 Jesus shares with the apostles certain situations ensnaring his end-time saints. Where he does not use the "elect" in referring to His saints, he uses "you," a word that on the surface indicates the apostles themselves, but in fact represents those who live long after them, just prior to His Return.

 

If the pre-tribulationists wish to alter the meaning of the term "elect," they must likewise do so, for the sake of consistency, to the meaning of the term "you." In fact, this is exactly what they do, suggesting both terms refer to the Jews alone i.e. that the apostles are in this case representatives of Jews, not Christians.

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I have never understood the pre-trib position on these two chapters. To me they both indicate that the rapture occurs at the second coming after a time of trouble, I would just like pre-tribbers to explain how they interpret the texts. I generally believe the bible is better understood taking the more obvious reading of the text because it wasn't written for rocket scientists and Greek scholars, and so I'm really interested what you have to say:

This seems to be saying that pre-trib believers will get their relief/rest at the second coming on a day of vengeance and punishment for the ungodly:

2 Thess 1

we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe

This seems to be saying that gathering of pre-trib believers and the second coming are the same day of Christ, and only occur after the man of sin is revealed:

2 Thess 2

concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What say you pre-tribbers on these two chapters?

Argosy

 

On 2 Thes 1

 

If one is not worthy now before the Lord, why should one think they will be worthy 7 years from now.  Remember this was written to the 1st century church. Were they worthy at that time?  This chapter really does not support any Rapture position

 

On 2Thes 2

 

This falling away may have been going on for the past 20 years or more.  If one looks at 1 Tim 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.  This is happening now.  It will get worse during the 70th week of Daniel.  Rev 9:20  -   For here all mankind is doing this.

 

Also 2 Thes 2;6,7 - And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.  For the secret power of the lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.  And then the lawless one will be revealed.   Here Scripture says that someone very powerful must be taken out of the way before this man appears.  Who is the most powerful force on earth at this time?  Acts 1:8 - But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you.  Why do we as Christians need this power?  To repel Satan's attacks.

 

2 Thes  2 has pre - trib written all over it.

 

In  Christ

Montana Marv

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I will give input later today.

 

One reason why I do not believe in the post-trib theory is: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind (the 2/3's not killed by the plagues of v.18) STILL did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop (continued on) worshiping demons, and idols....... Nor did they repent of v.21...

 

If one can say they are not of this 2/3's who remain, then they died in the plagues of the 6th Trumpet or they were removed beforehand.  Not a pretty picture continuing to worshiping demons and idols as Scripture says.  And yet many of these die at Armageddon.  Post Tribber's what do you think?  "The Rest of Mankind" continued to worship demons and idols.  Think about it; even those of Israel who are considered "the elect" and the 144,000 from Israel.  Why do you think that Christ needs to rule with a "rod of iron" during the Mill?  Because of demon and idol worship.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

There has to be those who are repentant during the tribulation because at the end of the tribulation the elect are gathered according to Matthew 24. So Rev 9 is obviously referring to the unsaved.

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Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

 

The fact that a certain word does not appear in a certain chapter is not a strong argument. For example the word "Messiah" is not used in Daniel 2 which refers to the end of the world. Does this mean that the Messiah is not involved?? That kind of argument is meaningless, no one end-times chapter contains all the detail in all the other prophecies.

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I have never understood the pre-trib position on these two chapters. To me they both indicate that the rapture occurs at the second coming after a time of trouble, I would just like pre-tribbers to explain how they interpret the texts. I generally believe the bible is better understood taking the more obvious reading of the text because it wasn't written for rocket scientists and Greek scholars, and so I'm really interested what you have to say:

This seems to be saying that pre-trib believers will get their relief/rest at the second coming on a day of vengeance and punishment for the ungodly:

2 Thess 1

we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe

This seems to be saying that gathering of pre-trib believers and the second coming are the same day of Christ, and only occur after the man of sin is revealed:

2 Thess 2

concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What say you pre-tribbers on these two chapters?

Argosy

 

On 2 Thes 1

 

If one is not worthy now before the Lord, why should one think they will be worthy 7 years from now.  Remember this was written to the 1st century church. Were they worthy at that time?  This chapter really does not support any Rapture position

 

On 2Thes 2

 

This falling away may have been going on for the past 20 years or more.  If one looks at 1 Tim 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.  This is happening now.  It will get worse during the 70th week of Daniel.  Rev 9:20  -   For here all mankind is doing this.

 

Also 2 Thes 2;6,7 - And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.  For the secret power of the lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.  And then the lawless one will be revealed.   Here Scripture says that someone very powerful must be taken out of the way before this man appears.  Who is the most powerful force on earth at this time?  Acts 1:8 - But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you.  Why do we as Christians need this power?  To repel Satan's attacks.

 

2 Thes  2 has pre - trib written all over it.

 

In  Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

 

 

On 2 Thess 1:  I don't feel you dealt with the actual wording. This chapter is showing that pre-trib believers (like the Thessalonians) will receive their relief from persecutions at the second coming when Jesus is revealed in blazing fire. This is contrary to the "silent" rapture theory. 

 

On 2 Thes 2:  Again you did not give an in depth analysis of the wording. You focussed on the "falling away"  wihtout acknowledging that 2 Thess 2 clearly states that our gathering and the second coming only occur after the man of sin is revealed. This means that a pre-trib rapture is impossible. I was really expecting stronger biblical arguments from my pre-trib brethren.

 

On the "restrainer" of 2 Thess 2, people often do not read these verses carefully. This restrainer is withholding identity, keeping truth secret, restraining the revealing. This is Satan's role to keep things secretive, God exposes secrets, and reveals truth. This restrainer is an evil entity that is keeping the antichrist secret.   To see this restrainer as restraining evil... and therefore a good entity, is to misunderstand the passage.

 

 so that he may be revealed at the proper time.  For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed

 

2 Thessalonians 2 is all about a great revealing, and secret evil. When the restrainer is removed, the secret is exposed.  The restrainer is a powerful entity that is keeping secrets, the moment this entity is removed, the identity of the antichrist is revealed. 

 

The restrainer is not the Holy Spirit, only an old doctrine of pre-trib would think that the Holy Spirit would somehow leave this planet years before the second coming. There is no biblical backing for that belief and it is not consistent with the great outpouring of the holy spirit during the end-times as per Joel.

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