THE RESTRAINER

[OneLight]

Please, when replying to me, use the whole statement and not just part of a sentence.  You can bold the part you want to emphasize, but by doing so may result in twisting the meaning of what I say to make it sound something it is not.
 

 

Then you are saying that John the Baptist is the beginning of the church age,

 
No I'm saying he was the Last of the OT Saints, the OT closed with him not Malachi...  Which is clear from the verses I provided.  The Church was Born @ Pentecost...See: Acts Chapter 1 and 2.

 

What I said in its entirety is:
 

Then you are saying that John the Baptist is the beginning of the church age, not Christ. Sorry, but that is far from the truth. The church age came in when Christ was born. The Law and Prophets did point to John, but he was not the beginning of the NC.

The Old Testament, or Old Covenant, did end with Malachi. There was a 400 year gap. John the Baptist was part of Christ Ministry, preparing the way. John even knew Jesus in the womb.
 
 

 

but thinking one has Absolute Truth while on this earth

 
This is a Strawman.  I never said That I personally have it; However, it's in a BOOK sitting in front of me 

 

Again, my whole statement is:
 

Seeking the truth is what we all should be doing, but thinking one has Absolute Truth while on this earth is only leading one to becoming delusional. There is only one who had the Absolute Truth, and we are not Him.

It is not a straw-man's argument, but the truth. We all have scripture, but to think we have understand everything is not true, as with this discussion. We are discussing what I see as the rapture and you do not see the same as I do. For either of us to say we are right and you are wrong is not a stance either of us should take. That is the truth.

 

 

but that does not mean we fully understand everything. To say we do would be arrogant and prideful

 
Another Strawman.  I never said I did.

 

Again, my whole statement was:

 

Yes, the Holy Spirit will teach us the truth, but that does not mean we fully understand everything. To say we do would be arrogant and prideful, not to say ignoring what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:12
 

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

 

Yet, you imply that you are right and I am wrong instead of discussing. When one tries to insist they are right, and it is pointed that neither of us may be right, is not a straw-man.
 
 

In addition, concerning the Woman in Rev 12....Israel is described as a Woman in Travail in (Jer 3:6f, Micah 4:10, 5: 2-3)
 
unto "us" (Israel), from Isaiah ....
 
(Isaiah 9:6) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

"Unto us is born" not the same as giving birth, as is started in Revelation 12 "She bore a male Child".

[ARGOSY]

Normally its preterists that place various 3.5 year periods into history rather than into the great tribulation, that is why I asked the question. I see your view as impossible in the context of Rev 12. This chapter has continuous reference to believers. The fall of Satan mentioned here, and the subsequent persecution of the saints are definitely/undoubtedly related to the church age, to us believers. So we will just have to agree to disagree and those who are on the fence regarding this issue can have another look at the relevant bible verses to decide for themselves whether this is honestly a church age event, or has occurred before the crucifixion of Jesus:

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And THEY OVERCAME HIM BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and by the WORD OF THEIR TESTIMONY; and they loved not their lives unto the death. THEREFORE rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

I specifically see the word "therefore" as emphasizing the sequence of events. Born-again church age believers overcome Satan by the blood of the lamb, the definite result of this is THEREFORE rejoicing in heaven and woe to earth and Satan's 3.5 years of wrath on earth. And so I cannot agree with your sequence of events because the text indicates the fall comes after the testimony of believers in the church age.

You may not realize this, but I am referring to the church age. I believe the church age began at Christ birth. Was there a church at that time in Christ?  Not as we have it now, but He was building it since birth. Christ had to grow and develop to the point where HE began His ministry, but that does not mean the church age had not begun. 

 

Revelation sometimes encompasses many years within a chapter, as it does in Revelation 12.  Again, Revelation 12 begins at the time of Christ birth and moves forward to when His followers defeat Satan by His blood at His Crucifixion and Resurrection.   The revealing of the son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a future event, yet to take place.

I think you are missing the point when we enter into a discussion about the usage of the term "church age". The following aspects of Rev 12 indicate to me that some parts of Rev 12 is referring to a period after the crucifixion when Christians have a testimony and overcome by the blood of the lamb. I really do not see how these sentences can fit into any period before the crucifixion or at the resurrection of Christ, they have to involve a period of Christians overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and our testimony:

v11 They triumphed over him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

v17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

I never explained the whole of Rev 12 in detail maybe this has caused some misunderstanding. I have mainly been referring to the last half of the chapter. To me Rev 12 is referring to TWO falls of satan, firstly the great rebellion in heaven which occurs in ages past before the birth of Jesus. Satan is still known as the "ruler of the air" during this age, and so still retains some kind of heavenly location. Then he experiences another fall, when Christians overcome him, and he loses his heavenly location.

If you can explain when you believe those verses were fulfilled that refer to believers I would be able to understand your position better.

[ARGOSY]

This is what the chapter means:

 

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (ANTICHRIST) is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what (SATAN) is holding him (ANTICHRIST) back, so that he (ANTICHRIST) may be revealed at the proper time. For the SECRET power of lawlessness (SPIRIT OF ANTICRIST) is already at work; but the one (SATAN) who now holds IT (the secret/revealing) back will continue to do so till he (SATAN) is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one (ANTICHRIST) will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

 

When is satan taken out of the way?  I don't get it.  I believe the AC is indwelt by satan. 

I believe Rev 12 says Satan is taken out of the way, out of his heavenly place of accusation, and falls to earth at the start of the great Tribulation. he could very well indwell the antichrist at that moment, I believe its entirely possible:

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I believe Satan is taken out the way 3.5 years before the second coming. This is known as the Great Tribulation and is described in Revelation 12. We know that its the last 3.5 years because its clearly in the church age, we have believers overcoming Satan through our testimony and the blood of Jesus. A definite 1260 days and "time, times and half a time" are mentioned... a definite reference to the tribulation period. But more specifically a period of persecution of the church is mentioned in this short period of Satan's wrath, which reminds us of the same 3.5 year period of persecution mentioned in Daniel 7:25 and Rev 13: 5-7

Of course prophecy is symbolic and open to various interpretations, but I believe the most obvious interpretation is the best, and I believe its pretty obvious that Rev 12 is referring to the church's success which causes Satan to fall from his heavenly place to earth for the Great Tribulation during which he persecutes the church. Satan falls twice in Rev 12, the first time is before the birth of Jesus in ages past, when he falls from his place with God. He does not fall onto the planet, but rather into the heavenly regions of earth because he is known as the evil "ruler of the air" during the current age, together with our enemies which are "powers and principalities in the heavens". So after Satan's initial fall, Satan still retains some sort of heavenly position (he remains in the fourth dimension of earth ?). Then the church overcomes Satan and he falls again, but right down to earth for his short period of wrath. Please read the entire Rev 12 carefully, then read my comments again and give your view on what is being said and if I could be correct.

[Enoch2021]

Please, when replying to me, use the whole statement and not just part of a sentence.  You can bold the part you want to emphasize, but by doing so may result in twisting the meaning of what I say to make it sound something it is not.

 

 

Then you are saying that John the Baptist is the beginning of the church age,

 

No I'm saying he was the Last of the OT Saints, the OT closed with him not Malachi...  Which is clear from the verses I provided.  The Church was Born @ Pentecost...See: Acts Chapter 1 and 2.

 

What I said in its entirety is:

 

Then you are saying that John the Baptist is the beginning of the church age, not Christ. Sorry, but that is far from the truth. The church age came in when Christ was born. The Law and Prophets did point to John, but he was not the beginning of the NC.

The Old Testament, or Old Covenant, did end with Malachi. There was a 400 year gap. John the Baptist was part of Christ Ministry, preparing the way. John even knew Jesus in the womb.

 

 

 

but thinking one has Absolute Truth while on this earth

 

This is a Strawman.  I never said That I personally have it; However, it's in a BOOK sitting in front of me 

 

Again, my whole statement is:

 

Seeking the truth is what we all should be doing, but thinking one has Absolute Truth while on this earth is only leading one to becoming delusional. There is only one who had the Absolute Truth, and we are not Him.

It is not a straw-man's argument, but the truth. We all have scripture, but to think we have understand everything is not true, as with this discussion. We are discussing what I see as the rapture and you do not see the same as I do. For either of us to say we are right and you are wrong is not a stance either of us should take. That is the truth.

 

 

but that does not mean we fully understand everything. To say we do would be arrogant and prideful

 

Another Strawman.  I never said I did.

 

Again, my whole statement was:

 

Yes, the Holy Spirit will teach us the truth, but that does not mean we fully understand everything. To say we do would be arrogant and prideful, not to say ignoring what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:12

 

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

 

Yet, you imply that you are right and I am wrong instead of discussing. When one tries to insist they are right, and it is pointed that neither of us may be right, is not a straw-man.

 

 

In addition, concerning the Woman in Rev 12....Israel is described as a Woman in Travail in (Jer 3:6f, Micah 4:10, 5: 2-3)

 

unto "us" (Israel), from Isaiah ....

 

(Isaiah 9:6) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

"Unto us is is born" not the same as giving birth, as is started in Revelation 12 "She bore a male Child".

 

============================================================

 

No Comment

[OneLight]

I think you are missing the point when we enter into a discussion about the usage of the term "church age". The following aspects of Rev 12 indicate to me that some parts of Rev 12 is referring to a period after the crucifixion when Christians have a testimony and overcome by the blood of the lamb. I really do not see how these sentences can fit into any period before the crucifixion or at the resurrection of Christ, they have to involve a period of Christians overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and our testimony:

v11 They triumphed over him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

v17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

I never explained the whole of Rev 12 in detail maybe this has caused some misunderstanding. I have mainly been referring to the last half of the chapter. To me Rev 12 is referring to TWO falls of satan, firstly the great rebellion in heaven which occurs in ages past before the birth of Jesus. Satan is still known as the "ruler of the air" during this age, and so still retains some kind of heavenly location. Then he experiences another fall, when Christians overcome him, and he loses his heavenly location.

If you can explain when you believe those verses were fulfilled that refer to believers I would be able to understand your position better.

I would have to disagree that Satan ever lost his heavenly location due to Ephesians 6:10-12

 

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Satan has not lost this position. According to scripture, he will loose it when he is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. Satan will be detained for 1000 years, I agree, but will be let loose to do his dirty deeds again before his final judgment.  I do agree that Christians who depend on Christ's strength do overcome him, but they do not remove him from where he was placed.

 

I never said the last part of Revelation 12 has ever ended.  We still continue to delete Satan through Christ.

 

What I have said all along has turned from two to three statements.

1. The revealing of the son of perdition has not yet happened.
2. The first 6 verses of Revelation 12 pertains to Jesus, Mary and Joseph escaping to Egypt, verses 7-12 pertain to the battle in heaven, and verses 13-17 have not ended.
3. The events are not the same events.

[ARGOSY]

I think you are missing the point when we enter into a discussion about the usage of the term "church age". The following aspects of Rev 12 indicate to me that some parts of Rev 12 is referring to a period after the crucifixion when Christians have a testimony and overcome by the blood of the lamb. I really do not see how these sentences can fit into any period before the crucifixion or at the resurrection of Christ, they have to involve a period of Christians overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and our testimony:

v11 They triumphed over him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

v17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

I never explained the whole of Rev 12 in detail maybe this has caused some misunderstanding. I have mainly been referring to the last half of the chapter. To me Rev 12 is referring to TWO falls of satan, firstly the great rebellion in heaven which occurs in ages past before the birth of Jesus. Satan is still known as the "ruler of the air" during this age, and so still retains some kind of heavenly location. Then he experiences another fall, when Christians overcome him, and he loses his heavenly location.

If you can explain when you believe those verses were fulfilled that refer to believers I would be able to understand your position better.

I would have to disagree that Satan ever lost his heavenly location due to Ephesians 6:10-12

 

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Satan has not lost this position. According to scripture, he will loose it when he is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. Satan will be detained for 1000 years, I agree, but will be let loose to do his dirty deeds again before his final judgment.  I do agree that Christians who depend on Christ's strength do overcome him, but they do not remove him from where he was placed.

 

I never said the last part of Revelation 12 has ever ended.  We still continue to delete Satan through Christ.

 

What I have said all along has turned from two to three statements.

• The revealing of the son of perdition has not yet happened.
• The first 6 verses of Revelation 12 pertains to Jesus, Mary and Joseph escaping to Egypt, verses 7-12 pertain to the battle in heaven, and verses 13-17 have not ended.
• The events are not the same events.

I agree with you that Satan is currently in "heavenly places". This is actually central to my point.

I disagree with you that Satan will only lose his place when he is cast into the lake of fire Rev 12 shows us that in fact through the testimony of the church, Satan will be thrown out of heaven for 3.5 years of wrath, and ONLY THEN will he be thrown into the lake of fire.

Your view of Rev 12 being an ongoing overcoming of Satan by believers does not actually fit the text which describes one single event in which Satan loses his place in heaven:

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

So unfortunately we cannot agree on this ... but I do appreciate the civility of the discussion.

[Montana Marv]

Argosy

 

One thing you fail to see in 2 Thes 2 is:  Who is holding back the secret power of lawlessness which is already at work here in the 1st Century.  The Restrainer is.  Lawlessness is already here, what/who is holding back this current lawlessness from becoming full blown.  Satan is not holding his lawlessness back, but the Restrainer is (the Holy Spirit).  The fight is between flesh and spirit.  This is an on going fight.  If Satan holds back Satan his kingdom is divided.

 

You are the first person I have heard to bring up this very strange theory of Satan being the restrainer.  I have never heard of any sermons on this point of view.  It is a false teaching you have brought up.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OneLight]

I think you are missing the point when we enter into a discussion about the usage of the term "church age". The following aspects of Rev 12 indicate to me that some parts of Rev 12 is referring to a period after the crucifixion when Christians have a testimony and overcome by the blood of the lamb. I really do not see how these sentences can fit into any period before the crucifixion or at the resurrection of Christ, they have to involve a period of Christians overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and our testimony:

v11 They triumphed over him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

v17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

I never explained the whole of Rev 12 in detail maybe this has caused some misunderstanding. I have mainly been referring to the last half of the chapter. To me Rev 12 is referring to TWO falls of satan, firstly the great rebellion in heaven which occurs in ages past before the birth of Jesus. Satan is still known as the "ruler of the air" during this age, and so still retains some kind of heavenly location. Then he experiences another fall, when Christians overcome him, and he loses his heavenly location.

If you can explain when you believe those verses were fulfilled that refer to believers I would be able to understand your position better.

I would have to disagree that Satan ever lost his heavenly location due to Ephesians 6:10-12

 

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Satan has not lost this position. According to scripture, he will loose it when he is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. Satan will be detained for 1000 years, I agree, but will be let loose to do his dirty deeds again before his final judgment.  I do agree that Christians who depend on Christ's strength do overcome him, but they do not remove him from where he was placed.

 

I never said the last part of Revelation 12 has ever ended.  We still continue to delete Satan through Christ.

 

What I have said all along has turned from two to three statements.

• The revealing of the son of perdition has not yet happened.
• The first 6 verses of Revelation 12 pertains to Jesus, Mary and Joseph escaping to Egypt, verses 7-12 pertain to the battle in heaven, and verses 13-17 have not ended.
• The events are not the same events.

I agree with you that Satan is currently in "heavenly places". This is actually central to my point.

I disagree with you that Satan will only lose his place when he is cast into the lake of fire Rev 12 shows us that in fact through the testimony of the church, Satan will be thrown out of heaven for 3.5 years of wrath, and ONLY THEN will he be thrown into the lake of fire.

Your view of Rev 12 being an ongoing overcoming of Satan by believers does not actually fit the text which describes one single event in which Satan loses his place in heaven:

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

So unfortunately we cannot agree on this ... but I do appreciate the civility of the discussion.

There is a difference between loosing their place and loosing a battle. The first means they are not allowed, the latter means they were defeated.

[Atwood]

Argosy, What does it indicate to you when "the restrainer" is referred to both with the neuter gender and with the masculine gender? Is there any other entity, aside from the Holy Spirit, Who can be referred to both with neuter (because the word for spirit is grammatically neuter) and with the masculine pronoun (as He is a person)?

[ARGOSY]

I think you are missing the point when we enter into a discussion about the usage of the term "church age". The following aspects of Rev 12 indicate to me that some parts of Rev 12 is referring to a period after the crucifixion when Christians have a testimony and overcome by the blood of the lamb. I really do not see how these sentences can fit into any period before the crucifixion or at the resurrection of Christ, they have to involve a period of Christians overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and our testimony:

v11 They triumphed over him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

v17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

I never explained the whole of Rev 12 in detail maybe this has caused some misunderstanding. I have mainly been referring to the last half of the chapter. To me Rev 12 is referring to TWO falls of satan, firstly the great rebellion in heaven which occurs in ages past before the birth of Jesus. Satan is still known as the "ruler of the air" during this age, and so still retains some kind of heavenly location. Then he experiences another fall, when Christians overcome him, and he loses his heavenly location.

If you can explain when you believe those verses were fulfilled that refer to believers I would be able to understand your position better.

I would have to disagree that Satan ever lost his heavenly location due to Ephesians 6:10-12

 

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Satan has not lost this position. According to scripture, he will loose it when he is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. Satan will be detained for 1000 years, I agree, but will be let loose to do his dirty deeds again before his final judgment.  I do agree that Christians who depend on Christ's strength do overcome him, but they do not remove him from where he was placed.

 

I never said the last part of Revelation 12 has ever ended.  We still continue to delete Satan through Christ.

 

What I have said all along has turned from two to three statements.

• The revealing of the son of perdition has not yet happened.
• The first 6 verses of Revelation 12 pertains to Jesus, Mary and Joseph escaping to Egypt, verses 7-12 pertain to the battle in heaven, and verses 13-17 have not ended.
• The events are not the same events.

I agree with you that Satan is currently in "heavenly places". This is actually central to my point.

I disagree with you that Satan will only lose his place when he is cast into the lake of fire Rev 12 shows us that in fact through the testimony of the church, Satan will be thrown out of heaven for 3.5 years of wrath, and ONLY THEN will he be thrown into the lake of fire.

Your view of Rev 12 being an ongoing overcoming of Satan by believers does not actually fit the text which describes one single event in which Satan loses his place in heaven:

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

So unfortunately we cannot agree on this ... but I do appreciate the civility of the discussion.

There is a difference between loosing their place and loosing a battle. The first means they are not allowed, the latter means they were defeated.

They lost their place in heaven and lost a battle. And Satan was cast down to earth. Its the moment of casting down to earth that I equate with Satan being taken out of the way. In his heavenly place he was in the way, accusing the brethren, then the church overcomes him by preaching the word to all nations (our testimony) and Satan is removed. Because he is removed he comes to earth in full wrath and is EXPOSED, his pawn the antichrist is REVEALED. This occurs for 3.5 years, a huge clue that we are referring to the tribulation period, which is known in 2 Thessalonians 2 as a short period of Satan's deception on earth. Bingo! we have a match!