Can violence be justified?

[Guest LadyC]

"don't just stand there, PRAY something!" -------

Now there is something to hang on the wall and to remember.

 

it was actually the title of a book i started reading once. i only read the first couple of chapters, but i gave it to a homeless man whom i fed lunch to when i stopped in baker, california on my way to see my daughter a few years ago. he was a former professor, and very intelligent, but in terrible health. he was afraid he would die before reconciling with a daughter that he'd lost touch with over the years. anyway, he said he missed reading, so i offered him that book. i still wonder about the guy.

 

and someday i'll buy the book again.

[Taker]

Taker, your understanding of scripture, and of CONTEXT, is still in new and being shaped. the scripture you provided from matthew is not talking about the use of violence. it's not talking about self defense, it's not talking about punishment (including death penalty.) many people think that we are never to judge anyone or anything they ever do, but that is so clearly NOT what scripture is talking about, because scripture tells us we ARE to judge the actions of another. so unless you think God lied in many other places, then there is a contextual break down that needs to be bridged. i'm not using my own computer right now, but if you'd like me to explore that with you in more detail and help you to find other scriptures and put them all in context, i'll be happy to do so a little later. please let me know.

 

same is true for your reference to romans 12:17. to get the conttext of that one you only have to do so much as read the next couple of verses where it clarifies that what is being discussed is personal vengeance... and i think every one of us here has made that distinction in their posts.

 

Don't ever insult my ability to interpret the Bible! Especially if you have no way of backing it up! You only addressed 2 verses that I provided. The verse In Matthew is clear as day, If you judge others than you will be judged, and on the same measure I might add. How can you possibly say that punching someone couldn't be seen as judging them?

A punch is a physical (rather than verbal) way of saying guilty!

 

Reading more into Romans chapter 12 only further backs up my point. We are not to take vengeance!

 

 

 

 

The description of violence here is vague. To some, it is premeditated, to some it is a reaction, including self defense. To some it is name calling, to some it is shooting someone. The comparison can go on. As you can see, the vagueness can, and has, resulted in many disagreements due to each seeing violence in a different light. The OP spoke about violence "in any form" and then adds an example of "1 on 1 fight with a bully to a world war."

The first choice should always be to do all one can do to resolve the matter without any physical altercation in the above example, where I would also include without any violent exchange of words, since violence is not only physical.

My answer about violence would be what was in your heart? Did I have to use violent movements to save the life of a someone, like a child, an elderly person or a woman being beaten? Did I sit in wait for someone who said something wrong, planing on harming this person in my rage of vengeance? Could I have just turned and walked away from a bully calling me names or shoving me, or do I let my pride take hold, forcing me to stand up for my rights? Do I turn around or find another way when I see someone sexually assaulting another in an alley or stoop, or do I do what I can to bring an end to this?

Too many question, too many examples, too many unknowns. There is no true answer to if one would use any swift and intense force to protect the innocent until one is faced with it. We can say that we would or would not as we sit in a peaceful environment discussing the possibilities, but when faced with reality, we have no idea how God may move us. Yes, God is love and we are instructed not to act in anger, but would He not move us to help an infant who is being punched or badly beaten by an adult? Not talking about a light tap on the behind for acting out.

As Christians, we should weigh your heart in every incident. God will lead you in an instance when faced with a choice of this magnitude.

Violence:behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something. <-- The definition of violence. Just to be clear. This is what I am referring to.

 

Violence is not Love. Violence is darkness. Darkness will never drive out darkness. Violence leads to more violence. More violence leads to hatred, hatred leads to rage, rage leads to revenge, and revenge leads to the dark side young padawan!

[other one]

So, I have meditated on some of the scripture that has been mentioned in this discussion. I now fully believe that no sin committed by another human being can justify the use of violence against them. "Do not judge others, so that you will not be judged" (Matthew 7:1) is very clearly written in the New Testament. So, how in the world could punching a guy in the face (or shooting him with a gun) possibly not be considered judging him?

 

By committing an act of violence, you are telling another human being "you are wrong, I am right." Can Christians claim that when you sin you become so much less of a person that all evil can be justified if used to stop you? "Never pay back evil with more evil. Do things in such a way that everyone can see you are honorable." (Romans 12:17).

 

To live in a way where you ask yourself, "what would I do if someone attacked my family?" makes it sound like you lack faith in the God of the universe who's love is infinite. There isn't a single thing that has ever happened in the world that God couldn't have stopped. Suffering is destined to come to those who sin, but Christians aren't called to take matters into their own hands. Remember what happened in Genesis chapter 19, the lord had plans to wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah. However, there was a righteous man living in Sodom and his name was Lot. Lot had been living in Sodom despite just how corrupt the citizens who surrounded him were. God sent 2 angles to Sodom. These angles were there to personally protect, warn and help Lot (as well as his family) escape Sodom. During the story, men from Sodom surround Lot's house while the angels are inside the house with Lot. These men get very angry and there are even threats of rape! Let us remember, that even though the house is surrounded by corrupt men who deserve destruction, neither God nor the angels told Lot to attack any of the men. Instead, the angels blinded all of the men. God can protect you no matter what, to say "I need a gun, or else God will allow my family members to get attacked right in front of me in such a way that I would wish that I had a gun." Sounds like a message that comes directly from the devil himself. Please take another look at the scripture in my original post. He who uses the sword will die by the sword. Not, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword.

 

Now, I must address all of the violence that was committed in the Old Testament by Christians for the sake of God. If a Christian killed a non-Christian in the bible (and the act wasn't condemned by God) then that means that God deliberately told that Christian to kill a specific person or group of people. Joshua was told by God to lead a violent military campaign against the Canaanites. This was God's will for Joshua, and God made it clear to Joshua that this was his will. God told Joshua that it was his duty to lead the Israelites in battle against the Canaanites. I want to make this point clear, unless God tells you to, you do not have his permission to kill or hurt anyone.

 

"But I must carry a Gun on me at all times. I cannot afford to drop my guard. If my Gun is at home and I am enjoying myself on vacation at the beach, then I have sinned by not being prepared to protect my family at this moment. Lord, please forgive me for not having an appropriate weapon on me at all times that I intend to use against my enemies." I do not endorse this way of thinking.

 

If you tell me, "I need to be armed at all times!" then I will ask you "Why? Do you find the armor of God to be in-adequate?"

 

To summarize all of my above points:

 

1. To commit violence against an enemy is to judge them, Matthew 7:1 tells us not to judge others.

 

2. Sin doesn't justify sin. Evil doesn't justify evil. "Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

3. God will protect the righteous. (Genesis chapter 19, or look to Acts 7:54-60)

 

4. God never gave man the ability to decide when it was right to kill or not kill another human. Unless you get direct orders from God, you should not kill or harm another human being.

 

5. The armor of God is sufficient!

 

The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these. - (Mark 12:31).

 

 

If all that is true then why do bad things happen to good people....

[Guest LadyC]

i was not intending to insult you at all. if i had, i'd have spoken rudely. and i'm quite capable of speaking rudely.

 

i was referencing the two verses you provided in the post i was responding to. there have been many studies even here on worthy about the context of judgment, and punching someone in the face may or may not be judgment. but that is not what that verse is talking about. and there are plenty of scriptures that discuss the responsibility of christians TO judge others... but again, it's all a matter of context.

 

but since you are taking offense to my offer to study this with you, then i'm going to let the matter of that verse drop.

 

and this quote: 

 

 

Reading more into Romans chapter 12 only further backs up my point. We are not to take vengeance!

 

 

that is EXACTLY what i was saying. we aren't to take vengeance. 

 

however self defense, or defense of another, IS NOT VENGEANCE. nor does God expect us to sit by and do nothing while someone brutalizes another human being. 

 

the questions were asked of someone else earlier, who never responded... would you mind answering them since we're on the topic? you don't have to, and i won't badger you if you refuse, but if you wouldn't mind, here's the questions (as best as i can recall them without searching the thread again.)

 

if you came across someone raping a young girl in a park, how would you react?

 

and two, if you arrived at your parents house to find an assailant assaulting your mother, what would your response be?

 

and thirdly, if it's ok for me to pose a question not previously asked, do you believe that God ever uses human hands to do His will? specifically, that God ever uses humans to protect other humans?

[other one]

waiting for his/her answers

 

 

****thanks for saving me the time of typing LadyC****

[OneLight]

Violence:behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something. <-- The definition of violence. Just to be clear. This is what I am referring to.

 

Violence is not Love. Violence is darkness. Darkness will never drive out darkness. Violence leads to more violence. More violence leads to hatred, hatred leads to rage, rage leads to revenge, and revenge leads to the dark side young padawan!

Thank you for your clarification. By your definition, self defense, or coming to the defense of a helpless person is not viewed as a form of violence, correct?

[Guest LadyC]

waiting for his/her answers

 

 

****thanks for saving me the time of typing LadyC****

 

well of course! i guess i said all you wanted to say?

[other one]

 

waiting for his/her answers

 

 

****thanks for saving me the time of typing LadyC****

 

well of course! i guess i said all you wanted to say?

 

LoL   almost word for word..

[Guest]

.... when faced with reality, we have no idea how God may move us.

 

Yes, God is love and we are instructed not to act in anger,

 

but would He not move us to help an infant who is being punched or badly beaten by an adult?

 

Not talking about a light tap on the behind for acting out.

As Christians, we should weigh your heart in every incident.

 

God will lead you in an instance when faced with a choice of this magnitude.

 

....revenge leads to the dark side young padawan....

 

~

 

Young Learner

 

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

 

Sin IS The Dark Side

 

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

 

And Jesus Is THE Light, The Only Light

 

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

Who Saves Retched Sinner Men

 

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:9-10

 

From Their Works

 

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Romans 3:10-14

 

Of Death

 

Their feet are swift to shed blood:

 

Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known:

 

There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:15-18

 

~

 

PS: Beloved, Movie Land Fortune Cookie Thoughts

 

And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me: Jeremiah 16:12

 

Will Never Save A Fellow From

 

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 16:25

 

The Wrath To Come

 

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

 

~

 

May The LORD

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

Be With

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

You

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Joe

[OneLight]

Violence is not Love. Violence is darkness. Darkness will never drive out darkness. Violence leads to more violence. More violence leads to hatred, hatred leads to rage, rage leads to revenge, and revenge leads to the dark side young padawan!

Is this from your jedi religion?