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Post Tribbers - Please explain


Montana Marv

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And still no post tribber has really commented on the OP.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Marv,

I'm not a post tribber so I can't answer for them, but your OP had to do with angels now proclaiming the good news message and warning them not to take the mark of the beast during the final 3.5 years.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams also be proclaiming the good news and warning people?

I do agree with you that after the pre wrath rapture, 6th seal, there won't be any "church" witnesses around to proclaim this message.

So, for about 3 years, it will be all up to the two witnesses and the angels (not sure about 144,000). Of course, the left behind lukewarm members of the church who Jesus spit out of his mouth into tribulation will probably be reading their Bibles pretty thoroughly this time when they see they got it wrong. I'm sure this group will grow significantly each day.

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And still no post tribber has really commented on the OP.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Marv,

I'm not a post tribber so I can't answer for them, but your OP had to do with angels now proclaiming the good news message and warning them not to take the mark of the beast during the final 3.5 years.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish Billy Grahams also be proclaiming the good news and warning people?

I do agree with you that after the pre wrath rapture, 6th seal, there won't be any "church" witnesses around to proclaim this message.

So, for about 3 years, it will be all up to the two witnesses and the angels (not sure about 144,000). Of course, the left behind lukewarm members of the church who Jesus spit out of his mouth into tribulation will probably be reading their Bibles pretty thoroughly this time when they see they got it wrong. I'm sure this group will grow significantly each day.

 

Spock

 

The 144,000 are not evangelists; They are not sealed for what they do during the Trib., but they are sealed for what they will be doing during the Mill..  They sing a new song before the throne and they follow the Lamb where ever He goes. (Rev 14:1-5)  This is what Scripture says. 

 

The two witnesses have power, they prophesy for 1,260 days.  They give advanced notice of what will be happening.  These two show up just before the A/D is set up;  Or their appearance is the trigger which causes the A/C to set up the A/D.  For they are killed shortly before Armageddon.

 

Yet the angel flying is mid air is proclaiming the eternal gospel.  The gospel which the Church gave out.  Yet the third angel is proclaiming that those who worship the beast and/or receive his mark will be doomed.  So this is going on during the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel.

 

Yet Scripture says from just before the 5th Trumpet and on to the end; ALL are demon and idol worshipers (those with the mark of the beast and those without the mark of the beast).  For some of these who are without the mark and have not worshiped the beast are ushered into the Mill Kingdom so Christ can rule them with a rod of iron.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Thanks Marv.

I never could figure out what the 144,000's role is during the GT. I inferred this (witnessing) without any scripture to confirm.

I also assume they will be located throughout the world spread out, so this led me to assume they would be witnessing. You are right, it doesn't say they are witnessing.

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You agreed with me about the separation of believers during the resurrection/rapture and that many will be martyrs.   But, in order for the rapture and second coming to occur in a single day, many millions of martyrs would all have to be killed while millions are attending the wedding supper, AND then everyone return with the Lord for the second coming the very same day.  This belief also requires that the beast that is waging war and overcoming the saints (Rev. 13:7 martyrs) will be over in a single day as well.  That seems impossible to me as well.  

 

Cheers

 

Hi rollin

 

Sorry I'm just not following your logic, I have tried to read Rev 13 to see why my view would require that the martyrdom would occur in a single day, and don't see it, its 42 months. I believe all mentions of a 3.5 year period in Revelation are referring to the great tribulation, which precedes the second coming. I believe the 42 months of the beast's rule in Rev 13 are immediately followed by the Rev 19 war, and the beast is then thrown into the lake of fire. Thus we have 3.5 years of martyrdom, then the resurrection/rapture event. This period is mentioned in Daniel 7, Rev 12, Rev 13. 

 

Plus I did give a series of verses that do associate the second coming with the resurrection/rapture.

 

The second coming... and the day of the Lord... are a whole day event, not just a single moment.  The army attacks Israel, Jews cry out to Jesus. Jesus appears and every eye sees Jesus, the church is raptured up to meet Jesus in the clouds, who presents us to the father in heaven for the wedding feast.  Possibly as part of the wedding feast we come back with the armies of heaven as per Rev 19, and the beast and the gathered armies are destroyed.

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And still no post tribber has really commented on the OP.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I did comment on it, see post 6. This Rev 14 angel is in second coming context, and the "good news" that this angel is proclaiming isn't the message of salvation. In fact the chapter quotes what good news the angel is saying:

 

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment IS COME: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters

 

Too late for these guys, its judgment time, the second coming is happening here.  Verse 9-14 are then a background warning how to avoid this judgment, just as Rev 20:4 gives some background information about the beast, then reverts to second coming/resurrection context.

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Brother Argosy,

I read and reread your last post in rebuttal to Marv, and if I can be frank, it doesn't make sense.

Marv said the angels are basically taking the place of the church, witnessing the gospel to lost mankind.

You say they are NOT witnessing the gospel because it is to late.

What does the word of God say? Here it is-

6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
8A second angel followed and said, “ ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’a which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

I don't see how you can say what you said-"it's too late, this is about judgment."

It's NEVER TO LATE to repent and believe in The Lord. These people still have a chance. In fact, v. 13 says, BLESSED are the dead who die IN THE LORD from now on.... 

From now on.....

From now on....

 

They will REST (after they die)

Doesn't this tell you people are still getting saved? 

And why is that?

Because they are listening to the message of salvation, the eternal gospel as cited in v.6 above, being proclaimed by the angel.  It seems like angel 3 was going out shortly after the A/C instituted his mark of the beast thing which could be close to the midpoint. I can't imagine this angel going out with that message late in the game (end of the 70th week as you seem to think) because that would be illogical.

I think Marv is 100% right on. This is a huge blow for the post trib doctrine. The angels have to do the job because the church can no longer do it, having been lifted out and are gone gone gone.

 

(We are accepting new applications for pre wrath rapture if you are interested though.) lol

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You agreed with me about the separation of believers during the resurrection/rapture and that many will be martyrs.   But, in order for the rapture and second coming to occur in a single day, many millions of martyrs would all have to be killed while millions are attending the wedding supper, AND then everyone return with the Lord for the second coming the very same day.  This belief also requires that the beast that is waging war and overcoming the saints (Rev. 13:7 martyrs) will be over in a single day as well.  That seems impossible to me as well.  

 

Cheers

Hi rollin

 

Sorry I'm just not following your logic, I have tried to read Rev 13 to see why my view would require that the martyrdom would occur in a single day, and don't see it, its 42 months. I believe all mentions of a 3.5 year period in Revelation are referring to the great tribulation, which precedes the second coming. I believe the 42 months of the beast's rule in Rev 13 are immediately followed by the Rev 19 war, and the beast is then thrown into the lake of fire. Thus we have 3.5 years of martyrdom, then the resurrection/rapture event. This period is mentioned in Daniel 7, Rev 12, Rev 13. 

 

Plus I did give a series of verses that do associate the second coming with the resurrection/rapture.

 

The second coming... and the day of the Lord... are a whole day event, not just a single moment.  The army attacks Israel, Jews cry out to Jesus. Jesus appears and every eye sees Jesus, the church is raptured up to meet Jesus in the clouds, who presents us to the father in heaven for the wedding feast.  Possibly as part of the wedding feast we come back with the armies of heaven as per Rev 19, and the beast and the gathered armies are destroyed.

I think we agree on the great tribulation running 42 months (1260 days), but I don't see the martyrs being killed that entire time and also, Daniel 12 states that these wonders will run 1290 days, blessed are those who come to the 1335 days.

The beast will not overcome the martyrs until the second beast rises up from the earth and no time frames are given for that. Furthermore, I believe the martyrs won't start being killed until the hour of trial comes upon all of the inhabitants of the earth after the rapture. It appears that you assume the hour of trial and the great tribulation are the same time, but I don't think so. The ten kings will not have a kingdom at first, but they will reign with the beast for one hour, which I believe is a term meaning a very short time. I believe this short hour will be towards the very end, because Jesus said that if those days were not shortened that no flesh would be saved. That's when He will step in to intervene.

Anyway, it was good discussing this with you. We agree on some things, but I see several problems with the single day rapture/second coming idea.

Cheers

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I think we agree on the great tribulation running 42 months (1260 days), but I don't see the martyrs being killed that entire time and also, Daniel 12 states that these wonders will run 1290 days, blessed are those who come to the 1335 days.

 

Maybe they won't be killed the entire time. but I don't see how that supports your argument that the second coming and the rapture are on different days.

 

 

The beast will not overcome the martyrs until the second beast rises up from the earth and no time frames are given for that. Furthermore, I believe the martyrs won't start being killed until the hour of trial comes upon all of the inhabitants of the earth after the rapture. It appears that you assume the hour of trial and the great tribulation are the same time, but I don't think so. The ten kings will not have a kingdom at first, but they will reign with the beast for one hour, which I believe is a term meaning a very short time. I believe this short hour will be towards the very end, because Jesus said that if those days were not shortened that no flesh would be saved. That's when He will step in to intervene.

 

 

We agree that the second beast must rise up, and the ten horns as well. If you read Daniel 7, you will see that the ten horns rise up....then the little horn dominates 3 of them.... then the little horn has power for 3.5 years. This is the order of events. Because the two-horned beast helps the little horn (Rev 13 beast) to power, we can easily deduce that the two-horned beast is in power before the start of the great tribulation. Hopefully you can see and acknowledge that point. 

 

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

Anyway, it was good discussing this with you. We agree on some things, but I see several problems with the single day rapture/second coming idea.

 

 

Thanks for the discussion. 

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Brother Argosy,

I read and reread your last post in rebuttal to Marv, and if I can be frank, it doesn't make sense.

Marv said the angels are basically taking the place of the church, witnessing the gospel to lost mankind.

You say they are NOT witnessing the gospel because it is to late.

What does the word of God say? Here it is-

6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8A second angel followed and said, “ ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’a which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

I don't see how you can say what you said-"it's too late, this is about judgment."

It's NEVER TO LATE to repent and believe in The Lord. These people still have a chance. In fact, v. 13 says, BLESSED are the dead who die IN THE LORD from now on.... 

From now on.....

From now on....

 

They will REST (after they die)

Doesn't this tell you people are still getting saved? 

And why is that?

Because they are listening to the message of salvation, the eternal gospel as cited in v.6 above, being proclaimed by the angel.  It seems like angel 3 was going out shortly after the A/C instituted his mark of the beast thing which could be close to the midpoint. I can't imagine this angel going out with that message late in the game (end of the 70th week as you seem to think) because that would be illogical.

I think Marv is 100% right on. This is a huge blow for the post trib doctrine. The angels have to do the job because the church can no longer do it, having been lifted out and are gone gone gone.

 

(We are accepting new applications for pre wrath rapture if you are interested though.) lol

 

 

Hi Spock..you can hold onto those pre-wrath application forms for now   :)   I am actually pre-wrath, but regard the wrath as the day of the Lord. We do not experience the wrath of that day. But some of us are  definitely on earth until that day of wrath:

He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people

 

I think an angel preaching the gospel will be pretty convincing, I'm quite surprised that anyone will serve the beast with a preaching angel flying around the planet preaching to every nation. This is not only far-fetched, it just does not fit context which is clearly a day of judgment:

Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

 

The word "gospel" does not only mean "believe in Jesus and be saved". Gospel means "good news"  or "truth" . When this angel proclaims the eternal gospel, this does not guarantee that the angel is preaching about Jesus.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong:

The first angel is in second coming context (hour of judgment has come)

The second angel is in second coming context (fall of Babylon)

The third angel is warning about the period before the second coming (the beast) 

The voice is talking to Christians throughout time (blessed are they who die in the Lord)

 

Do you honestly believe there will be an angel proclaiming the gospel during the tribulation?   

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Hi Spock..you can hold onto those pre-wrath application forms for now   :)   I am actually pre-wrath, but regard the wrath as the day of the Lord. We do not experience the wrath of that day. But some of us are  definitely on earth until that day of wrath:

He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people

 

I think an angel preaching the gospel will be pretty convincing, I'm quite surprised that anyone will serve the beast with a preaching angel flying around the planet preaching to every nation. This is not only far-fetched, it just does not fit context which is clearly a day of judgment:

Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

 

The word "gospel" does not only mean "believe in Jesus and be saved". Gospel means "good news"  or "truth" . When this angel proclaims the eternal gospel, this does not guarantee that the angel is preaching about Jesus.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong:

The first angel is in second coming context (hour of judgment has come)

The second angel is in second coming context (fall of Babylon)

The third angel is warning about the period before the second coming (the beast) 

The voice is talking to Christians throughout time (blessed are they who die in the Lord)

 

Do you honestly believe there will be an angel proclaiming the gospel during the tribulation?   

 

 

======================================================================

 

 

The word "gospel" does not only mean "believe in Jesus and be saved". Gospel means "good news"  or "truth" . When this angel proclaims the eternal gospel, this does not guarantee that the angel is preaching about Jesus.

 

Paul defined it for you.....

 

(1 Corinthians 15:1-4) "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;  {2} By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.  {3} For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;  {4} And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

 

 

Gospel-  Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, And that he was buried, he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

 

Do you honestly believe there will be an angel proclaiming the gospel during the tribulation?

 

Well Yes, GOD said so...

 

(Revelation 14:6) "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

 

Also, it's not "tribulation" (Little "t") it's the Great Tribulation.  Big Difference.

 

 

I am actually pre-wrath, but regard the wrath as the day of the Lord.

 

Is the "Day Of The Lord" a single day? Event? or Time Period?

 

What is GOD'S Wrath?

 

I think you're equivocating "Wrath" and "day of The Lord" exclusively.  Lets take a closer look....

 

 

(Jeremiah 46:10) "For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates."

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

 

It appears the "day of The Lord" and "day of vengeance" are the same and are speaking to a Specific Day and event and Identifies it with the "Winepress"......this one:

 

(Revelation 19:15-16) "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

Also....

 

(Acts 2:20) "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:"

 

(Revelation 6:12) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"

 

Luke in Acts says that before the "day of the Lord" the sun is turned to darkness and moon to blood. There it is in Rev 6:12.

 

 

But, God's Wrath is already being poured out well well before Rev 19....

 

(Revelation 6:16) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

 

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

(Revelation 11:18) "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

 

(Revelation 15:1) "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

 

Rev 15:1 above clearlly defines @ least part of HIS (Filled Up!) Wrath;  with the seven last plagues.

 

(Revelation 15:7) "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."

 

Babylon receives some of HIS Wrath....

 

(Revelation 16:19) "And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

 

 

Clearly from the outline and passages above, GOD'S Wrath and The "day of the Lord" are not exclusively the same.  In other words, even though the Second Coming (See Revelation 19) is GOD'S Wrath it doesn't preclude the fact that there are other forms and dispensations of it.

 

 

So if you're Pre-Wrath, you must subscribe to "The Rapture" prior to Rev 6?  Yes?

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