Is there an Apostasy?

December 27, 2004

They want you to feel that if you condemn the false doctrine you are condemning the person speaking, but the truth is when we judge the validity of doctrine using the inspired Word of God we are not sinning. We should never become blind to truth for the sake of peace, and to state the truth does not condemn anything but the false doctrine, or the lie. If the person that brought forth the false doctrine for whatever reason, does not correct themselves when shown the truth, then that person has condemned him or herself by willful blindness. That is no ones fault, and we should never apologize or feel bad for standing up for the truth as long as we are very sure it can be proven in scripture the right way.

When you use the term, "false doctrine," what do YOU mean by that? What doctrines in the church today, do YOU consider false? I have been a Christian long enough to be around people who think it is their job to tell everyone else where to get off.

There are many little words they interject into their sermons in order to get us thinking this way. Some of these terms are

December 27, 2004

Christ condemned the doctrine of the Pharisees because it was of human origin.

Jesus told the people that the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses, and what they say, do. But he told them not imitate the Pharisees because they do say one thing, but do another.

Even in the verses you quoted, it shows that Jesus was not condemning the traditions, but the way the Pharisees and other religious leaders employed them.

Jesus did not condemn the wearing of the Phylacteries. He condemned the ostentatious display of such things. He condemned them for putting their traditions above the Scriptures. The traditions were not the problem. Had the Pharisees kept their traditions in their proper place, there would have been no problem. Instead they were setting aside the Word of God in favor of their traditions. THAT is what Jesus was condemning.

The earliest true doctrine of the Christian church declared: (1) That Jesus was the Messiah, the Christ, Acts 3:18; (2) that God had raised Him from the dead Acts 1:22; 2:24,32; and (3) that salvation was by faith in His name Acts 2:38; 2:16. These three truths were presented as a clear fulfillment of the promises of the Old Testament. There was also the command by Jesus to baptize in His Name (Authority) Matt: 28; 18-20, and to preach the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick. Luke 9:2. Jesus did not come speaking his own doctrine, but only what He received from the Holy Father in heaven. Let's read this in John 7:15-16, and notice that the Jews knew Jesus did not go to their learning institutions. "And the Jews marveled, saying, "How does this Man know letters, having never studied?" Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine (teaching) is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

You have not answered my question. What doctrines in the mainline church do you consider "false doctrines." Since you appear to believe that we are in apostasy, what specifically do we believe that you consider apostate?

December 27, 2004

Christ condemned the doctrine of the Pharisees because it was of human origin.

Jesus told the people that the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses, and what they say, do. But he told them not imitate the Pharisees because they do say one thing, but do another.

Even in the verses you quoted, it shows that Jesus was not condemning the traditions, but the way the Pharisees and other religious leaders employed them.

Jesus did condemn the wearing of the Phylacteries. He condemned the ostentatious display of such things. He condemned them for putting their traditions above the Scriptures. The traditions were not the problem. Had the Pharisees kept their traditions in their proper place, there would have been no problem. Instead they were setting aside the Word of God in favor of their traditions. THAT is what Jesus was condemning.

The earliest true doctrine of the Christian church declared: (1) That Jesus was the Messiah, the Christ, Acts 3:18; (2) that God had raised Him from the dead Acts 1:22; 2:24,32; and (3) that salvation was by faith in His name Acts 2:38; 2:16. These three truths were presented as a clear fulfillment of the promises of the Old Testament. There was also the command by Jesus to baptize in His Name (Authority) Matt: 28; 18-20, and to preach the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick. Luke 9:2. Jesus did not come speaking his own doctrine, but only what He received from the Holy Father in heaven. Let's read this in John 7:15-16, and notice that the Jews knew Jesus did not go to their learning institutions. "And the Jews marveled, saying, "How does this Man know letters, having never studied?" Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine (teaching) is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

You have not answered my question. What doctrines in the mainline church do you consider "false doctrines." Since you appear to believe that we are in apostasy, what specifically do we believe that you consider apostate?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe many things that are apostate in the church today, but it is not my place to tell anyone what is apostate. I wrote a book titled The Great Apostasy" and I did lay out many things there as researched information. People can believe the research or not. There is a time and I believe that the time is now when there will be a great falling away. If we look at the meaning of this with an open mind we can see that there will be something very wrong in the christian church in the last days. What could it be that would warrant a warning?

Regards

Timothy

December 27, 2004

I believe many things that are apostate in the church today, but it is not my place to tell anyone what is apostate. I wrote a book titled The Great Apostasy" and I did lay out many things there as researched information. People can believe the research or not. There is a time and I believe that the time is now when there will be a great falling away. If we look at the meaning of this with an open mind we can see that there will be something very wrong in the christian church in the last days.

OK, so that makes little, to no sense. If you believe there is an apostasy, then you must know why. There must be specific doctrines or practices that you consider apostate. How can it be your place to tell us that there is an apostasy, but not your place to tell us just what it is that makes the apostasy so?

What could it be that would warrant a warning?

Yeah, that is what I am asking you!!

I am also curious as to YOUR definition of "apostasy." How do you personally define it? What specifically does apostasy entail?

Matthitjah · December 27, 2004

Table,

John warned us of this falling away Century's ago as well the other Saint's at the time. It was even happening then. This is nothing new. These men stood opposed to Paul. For the sole purpose of saying that they themselves had provided for Salvation for men. Paul spoke of this and said thanks be to God that I had not Baptised you. So they would not say that it was of Paul.

Granted there is much to watch out for. John told us how to know those whom hold the Truth.

The same of the Pharisaical order that you speak of. Their problem was one of Faith in God. They, if they were children of Abraham? Would not have taken the widows land nor Loved the High places. They spoke of the Temple and placed value on it. They took oaths by it and their order . All the while shorting the money and making men buy Salvation from them. Teling others to not work on the Sabbath. All the while they exchanged money, working for thier own Glory and gain. This is the chief reason that Christ overturned the money changers. They were making merchandise of men. They would have no King. They were the Kings of their self professed Salvation. A Religious pious order blinded by lawlessness.

You see Paul spoke of this. The very Law they claimed to uphold they could not keep. It showed their iniquity. This is what lawlessness is. That is why I asked you what that meant. To be without Christ is to be lawless. You cannot keep the Law. Therefore you must as Paul has stated die to it. These men and the Apostate you speak of are Truly lawless. For in their own sin they are twice dead and without Faith in God.

God purchased this peculiar Nation with His own Blood. There is no attaining it lest it be by Grace. Faith in God's very Word. There is no Faith lest you believe God. Otherwise you are already condemned. LAWLESS!

I see at your website that you do not take the writings of Paul as the literal Word of God?

So what is this apostasy you speak of? Isn't it really a lack of belief in God's Word?

Was Paul speaking and writing God's very Word?

Peace,

Dave

Sola Scriptora · December 27, 2004

Clearly the fallin gaway is the whole Bill Hybles Seeker Sensitive movements, along with his buddy Rick Warren and His Uncrucified driven life and church. These guys are slick, worldy apostates that have done more in the shortest amount of time to inculcate pure fleshly garbage into the churches and tens of thousands of dupable pastors, who should have been reading Wesley and Finney instead of the satanic garbage from these hirelings.

ayin jade · December 27, 2004

From Dr Luke

I see at your website that you do not take the writings of Paul as the literal Word of God?

2 Peter 3

15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Yet here is scripture that clearly states that Paul's letters are considered scripture. That God gave him wisdom.

nebula · December 28, 2004

Worthy watchman

To address me as a wise one is such a derogatory term and I really don't understand why you would address me that way.

It is because it has become tiring watching people coming in here looking for recruits to their movement.

We have seen this attack on mailine denominations before and churches before.

Your "what we call Christianity" statement relating it to "the great apostacy" set my alarms off.

This attack being your first post did not ease my suspicions any, either.

The problem is that many have not questioned their beliefs but just have went along with what their church teach. All I want to do is challenge people to think about why they believe what they do and to consider that Satan is alive and he surely wants to attack the truth of God.

To become a christian is to accept Jesus as your savior. Salvation is in God's hands as no person knows the hearts of any single person except Him. We don't know what a person has been through in their life, or what God has in store for them.

As for the fellowship of believers we should follow Jesus and not any man. all Christians should look to Jesus alone for their place in the body (Church) and that the true structure of the Church is like a vine as Jesus Himself described in John 15:4-7. I teach that no man should ever claim by virtue of a right to be the successor or advocate of Jesus here on earth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even the church in the first century was led by the apostles.

Although I do not agree with what the Roman Catholic Church became and did to Christianity, I have fellowshipped with many Roman Catholics who I could tell had the Spirit of God in them. I know you will not believe my discernment in this, but it is what I know.

It is not for us to judge wheat from tares based solely on what church or denomination they belong to.

It is also unfair for you to assume that none of us have studied why we believe what we believe, to think and ask questions about the doctrines we have been taught. In this you are mistaken.

I too used to be a part of a feelowship that "separated intself" out from the mainstream churhc. We called ourselves a "cave church" actually. We beleived we had dabs on the truth that everyone else was blinded to.

Long story short, the group turned out to be very, very cultish. My recovery from the experience was long and painful.

Thus, I am a bit more sensitive and less likely to be patient with anything that sounds like "you must come out of mainstream Christianity and be separate in order to be a true follower of Jesus."

December 28, 2004

I believe many things that are apostate in the church today, but it is not my place to tell anyone what is apostate. I wrote a book titled The Great Apostasy" and I did lay out many things there as researched information. People can believe the research or not. There is a time and I believe that the time is now when there will be a great falling away. If we look at the meaning of this with an open mind we can see that there will be something very wrong in the christian church in the last days.

OK, so that makes little, to no sense. If you believe there is an apostasy, then you must know why. There must be specific doctrines or practices that you consider apostate. How can it be your place to tell us that there is an apostasy, but not your place to tell us just what it is that makes the apostasy so?

What could it be that would warrant a warning?

Yeah, that is what I am asking you!!

I am also curious as to YOUR definition of "apostasy." How do you personally define it? What specifically does apostasy entail?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apostasy in this case means a departure from the original doctrines. That is why I listed some of them in an earlier post. I know what I'm about to post will cause great concern, but if you will read without being on the defensive you might see that I'm not your enemy.

Satan

December 28, 2004

Worthy watchman

To address me as a wise one is such a derogatory term and I really don't understand why you would address me that way.

It is because it has become tiring watching people coming in here looking for recruits to their movement.

We have seen this attack on mailine denominations before and churches before.

Your "what we call Christianity" statement relating it to "the great apostacy" set my alarms off.

This attack being your first post did not ease my suspicions any, either.

The problem is that many have not questioned their beliefs but just have went along with what their church teach. All I want to do is challenge people to think about why they believe what they do and to consider that Satan is alive and he surely wants to attack the truth of God.