Is there an Apostasy?

[Guest Masterstable]

Apostasy in this case means a departure from the original doctrines. That is why I listed some of them in an earlier post.

Apostasy is the rejection/denial of Christ. It is not merely a departure from doctrines. I can tell from what post in the paragraphs that follow, that you pretty much feel that the Church is apostate. The truth is that you follow a cult leader named Herbert Armstrong. You are the one following all kinds of false teachings.

Bibles that have been re-worded,

Really... so which Bibles have been reworded? All of them? What is your manuscript evidence to support this allegation? Oh wait... Armstrong says it, so it must be true.. right?

If God commands we keep the Passover on the 14th. Of Abib (Aviv), Satan must get people to keep it on the 15th.

Actually I keep Passover, and the reason that the seder is on the 15th is because the commandment was that the lamb was to be killed on the 14th at 3:00 pm. The Lamb was roasted and then eaten that evening (the 15th). The seder is not the Passover, so having the seder on the 15th is not problematic. The Lamb is the Passover, but since there is no Temple, there can be no Passover lamb.

If God tells us we will not become born again until the resurrection, and that's when those God calls will become Spirit...Satan has to teach we are born again now, and we can receive the kingdom now, or that the kingdom is within us.

IN Jn 5 and 1Jn. 5, we are told that Eternal Life is something we can we have today. We can know, according to the Scriptures that we possess Eternal Life now. We do not have to wait for the resurrection to know that.

What you are teaching is much closer to what the Mormons teach.

If God teaches salvation by grace with works as the fruits of grace...Satan teaches salvation by grace alone, and gets people thinking they don

[ayin jade]

Since my post and questions seem to have been overlooked, I am posting this again.

music that makes us focus on the cross and other pagan ideas, instead of uplifting praises to God like we find in the Psalms.

Certain secular music would fit into that true. Im curious about the statement

[Guest Masterstable]

Apostasy in this case means a departure from the original doctrines. That is why I listed some of them in an earlier post.

Apostasy is the rejection/denial of Christ. It is not merely a departure from doctrines. I can tell from what post in the paragraphs that follow, that you pretty much feel that the Church is apostate. The truth is that you follow a cult leader named Herbert Armstrong. You are the one following all kinds of false teachings.

Bibles that have been re-worded,

Really... so which Bibles have been reworded? All of them? What is your manuscript evidence to support this allegation? Oh wait... Armstrong says it, so it must be true.. right?

If God commands we keep the Passover on the 14th. Of Abib (Aviv), Satan must get people to keep it on the 15th.

Actually I keep Passover, and the reason that the seder is on the 15th is because the commandment was that the lamb was to be killed on the 14th at 3:00 pm. The Lamb was roasted and then eaten that evening (the 15th). The seder is not the Passover, so having the seder on the 15th is not problematic. The Lamb is the Passover, but since there is no Temple, there can be no Passover lamb.

If God tells us we will not become born again until the resurrection, and that's when those God calls will become Spirit...Satan has to teach we are born again now, and we can receive the kingdom now, or that the kingdom is within us.

IN Jn 5 and 1Jn. 5, we are told that Eternal Life is something we can we have today. We can know, according to the Scriptures that we possess Eternal Life now. We do not have to wait for the resurrection to know that.

What you are teaching is much closer to what the Mormons teach.

If God teaches salvation by grace with works as the fruits of grace...Satan teaches salvation by grace alone, and gets people thinking they don

[Guest CaraStar7]

Your answer to this question:

For more foundation to this fact we find scripture that state "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' Matt 7:22-23.

Notice the time setting in the above scripture is the last judgment. These people being judged were doing things during their lifetime in the Name Christian, but Jesus will not accept them, Why?

First let me say that it is FAITH over WORKS as you can read in the book of Romans written by the apostle Paul. These people are saying to the Lord on the last day, "Hey look at what good deeds I did in your name" But the Lord says " I don't know you" why does he not know them, if these people think they know him. In order for Jesus to responde to someone like this means that their FAITH their HEARTS were NOT TRUE... yes they were good people but were their works ALL for CHRIST? In Romans we also learn that God chooses the ones he will save, and he give them to Christ... not everyone is saved..sorry but thats the way it is. People can lie to themselves and think they are saved but you can only be brought to Christ through GOD's wishes for his Good Pleasure. Obviously because Jesus says that some people will proclaim his name and yet he doesn't know them simply means they weren't choosen people more like people trying to come to Christ ThemselVES and thats not how you get there. If you disagree, and you believe that you can come to Christ yourself...than pick up your bible and study Romans closer you CAN NOT miss it. Not arguement. I hope this helped..

[Ovedya]

Has this suddently turned into a OSAS debate? Because I'm lost here. Masterstable, exactly what are you trying to prove in all of this? You seem to be all over the place here.

Could you please boil your argument down into a few concise points?

Also, a few of your statemens sound very much like what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. Could you please tell us which, if any, denomination you are currently attending?

Edited December 28, 2004 by Ovedya

[Guest Masterstable]

Since my post and questions seem to have been overlooked, I am posting this again.

music that makes us focus on the cross and other pagan ideas, instead of uplifting praises to God like we find in the Psalms.

Certain secular music would fit into that true. Im curious about the statement

[Guest Masterstable]

Since my post and questions seem to have been overlooked, I am posting this again.

music that makes us focus on the cross and other pagan ideas, instead of uplifting praises to God like we find in the Psalms.

Certain secular music would fit into that true. Im curious about the statement

[Ovedya]

My turn:

There is a song for example that states "I come to the cross, I lay my sins at the foot of the cross." This song is pointing people to the cross and away from Christ. Why not sing...""I come to Jesus, I lay my sins at the foot of the Christ my savior?"

Who cares? Your assertion is ridiculous, quite frankly. This stanza does not focus on the cross as an object, but the meaning of the cross, which is to wipe away the sins of the world. Who cares whether it says, "I come to the cross" or "I come to Jesus"? Both mean the same thing! Change the song if you have a problem with it. But please don't assume that Christians are worshipping the idol of "the cross" rather than worshipping Christ.

If Jesus was murdered with a hangmans rope would we sing "I come to the hangmans rope , I lay my sins at the foot of the hangmans rope ?"

See how absurd that sounds?

Actually, it only sounds absurd because you are placing it in the context of the cross! If Jesus was hung with a rope we could very well have songs like that! So what's the point?

Another statement you made was...And your point is? Saturday (or the Sabbath you speak of) has another meaning relating to Saturn, a pagan god."

Saturn is the name pagans gave the day not God. All the days were numbered except the seventh day and God named it the Sabbath.

We read in Exod 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy which makes it part of the eternal law. It also is a part of creation.

The Sabbath day is the seventh day, which is Saturday. Who cares if it's called "Saturday"? What do you call Wednesday?

Let's ask a very important question: Why did God have to rest on the seventh day? Was God exhausted from all the work of creating? Of course not; God can't become exhausted. So what was He doing on the seventh day named the Sabbath? He was still creating!

Wrong. Not supported by any Scripture. God's rest on the seventh day was His enjoyment of the things He created. No one made the assumption that you are asserting here. No one ever said that God was exausted from His work of creation. The "rest" spoken of in the Bible is related to enjoyment. It is God's sitting back and enjoying the wonder of his own creation.

Time is constant and enduring forever so He was creating a time of holy worship by putting His own holy presence in the time from sunset to sunset so we can draw His presence out of that time.

Scripture, please.

When God is present then that which is around Him is holy.

God said He would be there for holy worship and fellowship on the seventh day so we can draw from His holiness as we take part in this special service with Him. Just as the ground that Moses stood was holy because God was present, the Sabbath time from sunset to sunset is just as holy.

Not true. Moses was not made holy by virture of being in God's presence. A specific day os not holy unless it is set aside unto the Lord. That day can be Sunday, the first day - the day of renewal - just as well as it is Saturday. The Lord Jesus is the God of the Sabbath. Therefore, when we have Christ we have the Sabbath. In terms of the New Testament age it has nothing to do with the keeping of a specific time period, but of enjoying Christ, who is in us as our Sabbath, as our Pasover.

Man is the one that changed the worship day from the seventh to the first day, not God! Constantine the Great, the Roman emperor, and sun worshipper changed it. Read what's recorded on creation week in Gen. 2:2. "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done."

I don't get this. First you talk about the freedoms from religion we have in Christ, then you talk about the legalistic keping of a day. Which is it?

[Guest Masterstable]

Has this suddently turned into a OSAS debate?  Because I'm lost here.  Masterstable, exactly what are you trying to prove in all of this?  You seem to be all over the place here. 

Could you please boil your argument down into a few concise points?

Also, a few of your statemens sound very much like what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach.  Could you please tell us which, if any, denomination you are currently attending?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You asked..."Could you please tell us which, if any, denomination you are currently attending?"

I do not attend any church. I'm non-denominational. I'm a christian that goes by the bible and I follow Jesus the Messiah. The reason I'm all over the place is because of the questions I'm asked.

Regards

Timothy

[Guest Masterstable]

My turn:

There is a song for example that states "I come to the cross, I lay my sins at the foot of the cross." This song is pointing people to the cross and away from Christ. Why not sing...""I come to Jesus, I lay my sins at the foot of the Christ my savior?"

Who cares? Your assertion is ridiculous, quite frankly. This stanza does not focus on the cross as an object, but the meaning of the cross, which is to wipe away the sins of the world. Who cares whether it says, "I come to the cross" or "I come to Jesus"? Both mean the same thing! Change the song if you have a problem with it. But please don't assume that Christians are worshipping the idol of "the cross" rather than worshipping Christ.

If Jesus was murdered with a hangmans rope would we sing "I come to the hangmans rope , I lay my sins at the foot of the hangmans rope ?"

See how absurd that sounds?

Actually, it only sounds absurd because you are placing it in the context of the cross! If Jesus was hung with a rope we could very well have songs like that! So what's the point?

Another statement you made was...And your point is? Saturday (or the Sabbath you speak of) has another meaning relating to Saturn, a pagan god."

Saturn is the name pagans gave the day not God. All the days were numbered except the seventh day and God named it the Sabbath.

We read in Exod 20:8-11 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy which makes it part of the eternal law. It also is a part of creation.

The Sabbath day is the seventh day, which is Saturday. Who cares if it's called "Saturday"? What do you call Wednesday?

Let's ask a very important question: Why did God have to rest on the seventh day? Was God exhausted from all the work of creating? Of course not; God can't become exhausted. So what was He doing on the seventh day named the Sabbath? He was still creating!

Wrong. Not supported by any Scripture. God's rest on the seventh day was His enjoyment of the things He created. No one made the assumption that you are asserting here. No one ever said that God was exausted from His work of creation. The "rest" spoken of in the Bible is related to enjoyment. It is God's sitting back and enjoying the wonder of his own creation.

Time is constant and enduring forever so He was creating a time of holy worship by putting His own holy presence in the time from sunset to sunset so we can draw His presence out of that time.

Scripture, please.

When God is present then that which is around Him is holy.

God said He would be there for holy worship and fellowship on the seventh day so we can draw from His holiness as we take part in this special service with Him. Just as the ground that Moses stood was holy because God was present, the Sabbath time from sunset to sunset is just as holy.

Not true. Moses was not made holy by virture of being in God's presence. A specific day os not holy unless it is set aside unto the Lord. That day can be Sunday, the first day - the day of renewal - just as well as it is Saturday. The Lord Jesus is the God of the Sabbath. Therefore, when we have Christ we have the Sabbath. In terms of the New Testament age it has nothing to do with the keeping of a specific time period, but of enjoying Christ, who is in us as our Sabbath, as our Pasover.

Man is the one that changed the worship day from the seventh to the first day, not God! Constantine the Great, the Roman emperor, and sun worshipper changed it. Read what's recorded on creation week in Gen. 2:2. "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done."

I don't get this. First you talk about the freedoms from religion we have in Christ, then you talk about the legalistic keping of a day. Which is it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never stated that we must keep the Sabbath for salvation. I keep it because God stated in the Ten Commandments for me to do so and God made it part of creation when He rested on the Sabbath. God said He would be there for holy worship and fellowship on the seventh day so we can draw from His holiness.

No one is stating that you must do it...I'm just stating why I do.

Regards

Timothy