Paster to Athiest

[gray wolf]

Yes, sometimes it is so hard to go on. What we see in the world runs counter to what we believe.

[Fez]

It should be pointed out that going from pastor to atheist isn't necessarily the same as going from "Christian to atheist."  There is no reason to assume that all pastors are Christians.

Which is what I was about to say! Especially in rural Africa, where being a "Pastor" sometimes is the way people make an income. We talk against it in our training times with pastors all the time. What then happens is "elders"  then see money can be made and start their own church. It's a cancer......

[LadyKay]

Lady Kay, you didn't say one way or the other so I am asking you about your comment.  When you say that even Pastors can lose their way, do you mean a Pastor who is a born again Christian can lose their faith to the point of becoming an atheist?  I am not looking to jump on you and say you are absolutely right or wrong regardless of your position.  I am just trying to understand what you mean.  I would ask you the same thing Gray Wolf.  Do you believe a born again Christian can lose their faith because of things they see taking place and become an atheist?  Can a true Christian completely turn from the faith?  This has been a topic of much debate over the years, and I would like your opinion.

I do think that a born again Christian can lose their way. If they become overwhelmed by probleams in this world. If they beome weak in their walk and try to cary the weight of this world on their own instead of going to God for help. I do think that we who are born again can be fooled by the devil's lies and lose are way. This is what I think.

[gray wolf]

It is not so simple as to say, well these people never were truly saved. The testimonies of some lead you to think that they were indeed children of God. It leads you to wonder, am I really saved? How do I know that something that seems genuine turns out not to be so in the future and I fall away? Then you have the people who fall away, only to return to the flock.

There are no easy answers. I am not really sure.

For an added complication, you have to consider those who switch faiths and put their heart and soul into a different set of beliefs. And you have those that do not stop believing in God, rather just cannot believe in the Christian concept of God. Are these people in the same situation as atheists? I don't think so.

[Chris.]

Sometimes people lose their way. Even pastors.

The devils job is a tempter and a deceiver, I guess if you get busy for Jesus maybe that is what could happen you are attacked with the weapon of doubt.

[Guest]

In doing research for his latest book, The Case For Faith (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2000), Strobel sought out and was granted an interview with Templeton in his penthouse apartment on the 25th floor of a high rise in Toronto, Canada.

 

During the course of their conversation, Charles Templeton had again vigorously defended his disavowal of God and his rejection of the Bible. There was no apparent chink in the armor of his callused soul. Then, Strobel directed the old gentleman’s attention to Christ. How would he now assess Jesus at this stage of his life?

 

Strobel says that, amazingly, Templeton’s “body language softened.” His voice took on a “melancholy and reflective tone.” And then, incredibly, he said:

 

“He was the greatest human being who has ever lived. He was a moral genius. His ethical sense was unique. He was the intrinsically wisest person that I’ve ever encountered in my life or in my reading. His commitment was total and led to his own death, much to the detriment of the world.”

 

....But the interview continued.

 

Strobel quietly commented: “You sound like you really care about him.”

 

“Well, yes,” Templeton acknowledged, “he’s the most important thing in my life.” He stammered: “I . . . I . . . I adore him . . . Everything good I know, everything decent I know, everything pure I know, I learned from Jesus.”

 

Strobel was stunned. He listened in shock. He says that Templeton’s voice began to crack. He then said, “I . . . miss . . . him!” With that the old man burst into tears; with shaking frame, he wept bitterly.

 

Finally, Templeton gained control of his emotions and wiped away the tears. “Enough of that,” he said, as he waved his hand, as if to suggest that there would be no more questions along that line.  https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/328-skeptic-reflects-upon-jesus-christ-a

[Guest shiloh357]

It is not so simple as to say, well these people never were truly saved.

 

Actually it is that simple.  A genuine follower of Jesus is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that precludes a true Christian from apostasy.   The problem lies in some people's theology regarding the true nature of salvation.

 

 

The testimonies of some lead you to think that they were indeed children of God. It leads you to wonder, am I really saved? How do I know that something that seems genuine turns out not to be so in the future and I fall away?

 

If a person has to ask those kinds of questions, it demonstrates a lack of assurance and that should really cause them to re-examine the authenticity of their intial profession of faith. 

 

Then you have the people who fall away, only to return to the flock.

There are no easy answers. I am not really sure.

 

I think there are some very clear answers.  The problem is that some people don't want to face them.

 

For an added complication, you have to consider those who switch faiths and put their heart and soul into a different set of beliefs. And you have those that do not stop believing in God, rather just cannot believe in the Christian concept of God. Are these people in the same situation as atheists? I don't think so.

 

Christianity isn't merely adopting or believing a set of propositional truths.  It is a transformation of the heart.   God gives all kinds of real assurances to us when we genuinely saved.  The problem is that people are trusting in belonging to the right religion or they are depending on being a good. religious person and doing the right things in order to be saved.  They are hoping that they have done enough and picked the right religion and truthfully hell is full of people like that.

 

Salvation is by grace through faith alone, in Christ alone.  Absent that a person will end up in hell, when they die.  Salvation is through Jesus not through a church or a religion.

 

They may not be in the same position as an atheist, but they will end up spending the same eternal fate as the atheist, if they don't have Jesus as Lord and Savior.

[gray wolf]

Back to my question of how does one know it is genuine? I mean you do what you think that God expects; truly repent and accept jJesus as your Savior. But what if there comes no consistent walk of faith? What if Jesis seems remote? You feel you're letting God down, that you just don't have it? You pray and pray and still Christ does not seem present. What do you do? The sinner's prayer again? It can go on for decades like this. I suppose one consolation is that you're still seeking and all is not lost yet.

[Guest shiloh357]

Back to my question of how does one know it is genuine? I mean you do what you think that God expects; truly repent and accept jJesus as your Savior. But what if there comes no consistent walk of faith? What if Jesis seems remote?

 

That is why you have the Bible and the indwelling Holy Spirit.  It is a relationship that has to be cultivated and nurtured.  You have to make Jesus a priority in your life. The Christian life is a life of constant surrender.  You are always weeding the garden.   Satan is ready to supply someone with all of the excuses they need to doubt the promises of God.  The problem is that we fail to appropriate the blessings and we fail to nurture the relationship.

 

You feel you're letting God down, that you just don't have it? You pray and pray and still Christ does not seem present. What do you do? The sinner's prayer again? It can go on for decades like this. I suppose one consolation is that you're still seeking and all is not lost yet.

 

That's it.  You don't have it and you never will.   Prayer comes in many forms and there are right and wrong ways to pray.  That's the problem with having a religion instead of a relationship.   No one has to tell you that your marriage is genuine.  You don't get every morning and have to recite the wedding vows over and over again to make sure your marriage is genuine. 

 

The problem is a lack of trust in the promises of God.  If you trust God you can rest in His promises.  If you don't trust Him then you will be forever caught in that endless rat race you describe.

[gray wolf]

nuff said