big bang continued

[Dee1116]

if evolution happened in the way it is claimed, then why are there still monkeys and why do we not continue to evolve?

[gray wolf]

if evolution happened in the way it is claimed, then why are there still monkeys and why do we not continue to evolve?

I am not a evolutionist, but evolution does not say man descended from monkeys, rather a common ancestor with the chimps.  Which explains a lot about my family!

[enoob57]

 

 

I don't think that's the case, but I am not an authority on evolution.  But then we have the Big Bang. . .

 

Well. You can just leave it there. People will be able to get the point. As for the big bang, we need to first address where the controversy is coming from. Science can be efficient and accurate only in dealing with a repeating pattern. The big bang however never repeats in front of us. Science is usually futile about this. That's where the doubts and arguments coming from.

 

Evolution is a claimed repeating pattern, but the pattern itself is not repeatedly available for examination. That's where the controversy coming from.

 

But some of our paragons of science on the boards keep trying to argue that simply because we can't apply the scientific method and cannot offer up any real scientific evidence for either the BB or evolution doesn't mean they are not scientifically proven facts that should be accepted without challenge or question.

 

We are all supposed to be a bunch of sheep who don't ask questions, who just blithely accept what we are told that are to believe.  That is what the scientific community wants from us.   We are supposed to sit down, shut up and just believe what scientific community tells us to believe.

 

would this result in a big bang number 2

[Guest shiloh357]

if evolution happened in the way it is claimed, then why are there still monkeys and why do we not continue to evolve?

If evolution were true the fossil record would support it, but it doesn't.  Most of the fossils that they have trotted out usually end up being frauds.  The history of the supporters of evolution is fraught with all kinds deceptions and fraudulent claims.   

 

Shhhhh...  (they don't want to talk about that)

[MorningGlory]

I find it amusing Christians would feel a need to respond with their assertions of amusements at the efforts of other Christians to make sense out of things. Or, maybe I don't find that amusing, but just unfortunate and immensely disappointing.

 

That's because you lack understanding, alpha.  I pray that you will come to see the Truth since you are obviously an intelligent individual. 

[MorningGlory]

Btw, how did we get on the topic of evolution?  That has nothing to do with the Big Bang. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Btw, how did we get on the topic of evolution?  That has nothing to do with the Big Bang. 

They are related, actually.  The BB gives the theory of Evolution the billions of years it needs.

[Macs Son]

[if you feel the evidence for the Big Bang is compelling and you want to believe it, that is your prerogative to do so.  Just be honest about the fact that it is not really reconcilable with Scripture and that one needs to abandon the Bible's account of creation in order to adopt the Big Bang model.

 

My contention is that theory clearly contradicts the biblical record.  Even Isaac Asimov observed that the scientific view of the universe is an attempt to explain its existence without God.  He wrote about he difference between the two worldviews and how utterly incompatible they are.   The Big Bang, Evolution et al., are an attempt to grapple with the problems of origins without having to appeal to God.  I think we all know that. 

 

I have read a number of secular articles about the Big Bang and what it all boils down to is a universe that was randomly created by an arbitrary explosion from a microscopic singularity, for which science cannot really account for unless one believer that the universe is expanding, crunching and re-expanding.

 

It is on the  level of expecting an explosion in a print shop  producing every book that exists in the Library of Congress.

Sorry to step into the middle of this Shiloh but I hope a few comments might help us all and build some understanding of differences which we might find to be unrelated to the truth of Scripture. To be frank I'm not exactly sure how you seem to believe the Big Bang theory contradicts Scripture.

Scripture says the universe had a beginning and that the genesis of that beginning was God. The Big bang theory also asserts that the universe had a beginning that had its genesis with a huge expansion (or stretch if you will) of all that we currently call creation. Now some try to take that even further in order to explain what might have caused this expansion but those are mere hypothesis and not based on facts. Hypothesis wind up being proved or disproved by the evidence. That said, there are many aspects of the initial expansion of the universe that can not only be explained, but where empirical evidence can establish it within degrees of certainty. The stretching of the universe was first proposed by Hubble by using something we know, just like there is a doppler effect with sound, there is a Doppler effect with light as well. Hubble discovered red shifts which pointed to a universe in expansion. Now every Ham operator knows there's is background radiation emanating from deep space but somewhat more recently, they decided on taking a deeper at this background radiation frequency and that initial look established some evidence of the rather quick and startling expansion (stretching) of the universe. That certainly, in my estimation, doesn't contradict Scripture but affirms Genesis and the creation, as well as other sections of the Bible.

http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/cobe/

Now I may part ways with scientists on some hypothetical attempts to explain initial causes and just how that expansion of energy gave birth to physical matter and the universe. But that doesn't mean we have anything to fear about the scientific methods for discovering truths itself. It is in that process, or in that search, that truths may be apprehended by true science, of course only within the "bounds of physical understanding". Yes, the physical universe may be understood and be made to tell its secrets but the secret is it will always give testimony to God's Glory and majesty. Now just as we had nothing to fear with Copernicus, rather imperfect heliocentric model of the solar system, we also have nothing to fear with pioneering analysis in attempting to discover universal truths about the physical universe. Sure Copernicus didn't get elliptical orbits down quite right but he certainly did get the earth orbits the Sun and not the other way around. His model was improved upon as it was corrected along the way and thus it gave way to the further perfections of the model by Galileo, then Newton, and Einstein. We certainly have nothing to fear from studying God creation - in fact I believe it very esteemable to do so. However, back in those centuries, there truly was real fear and criticism of all of those fellows by both Protestant and Catholic leaders who interpreted the Bible as stating that the earth was irrevocably the very center of the universe. Now, the Bible didn't ever say that but interpreters of the Bible, including Calvin, did say that. The Bible doesn't say how we got from "Let there be Light" to "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters" and yet the Bible clearly talks about the expansion of the universe and affirms many things about God's ways and action concerning the universe. That said, with our so called advances, we're still only scratching the surface and cannot yet fathom creation in all its totality but there is beauty and majesty in searching it out! - After all it's all by God's hand!

Here are just some Scriptural examples:

Isaiah 42:5 Thus says God the LORD,

Who created the heavens and stretched them out,

Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,

Who gives breath to the people on it,

And spirit to those who walk on it:

Job 38:4-7 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.

Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened?

Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Wow, the stars sang! I want to find that melody and joy of appreciation in the discovery of His creation as well!

Now other hypothesis, like the singularity are basically unproveable and no cosmologist worth their salt states that it is any more than an idea because they, like us, know this energy that emanated and grew into this thing we call space time had to have come from something. Speculations of course abound; There are quantum speculative ideas, there is string theory, etc. but all physical explanations seem to break down over cause and the question, "Well how did that get there?" and "what caused that", which results in a lot of circular logic. However, an eternal God beyond the domain of physical space/time, which by the way the Bible claims; as well as an infinitely powerful and wise God, who is not dependent or an integral part of the physical universe at all does make sense. The God of the Bible is clearly Spirit, and could easily amass such energy as well as stretch out the heavens and set all the universe's parameters in space/time that we call cosmological interdependencies. We are beginning to only comprehend this now by science and it all points to the intelligence and wisdom behind the creations. All truth is God's truth so I say let truth be known because I have the highest confidence the truth will glorify our God, just as creation itself glorifies Him and expresses the majesty of His wisdom, power and love.

John 4:24 “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

The true study of the universe and it's genesis can only point to God's truth once all facts are in and all fallacies contrived are made subservient by the never ending unraveling of God truth and revelation. If science seeks to find truth then I pray it does. It doesn't make truth it can only discover it. Many a scientist has come to see God's hand in studying the physical universe. Study of the physical universe cannot take us beyond the limits of physics into the Spiritual realms of God's eternal Being. God is beyond time/space and all that is physical but He did send His Son into the world, Him who co-created in order that the work He began will not end in futility but in the glorious and perfect reflection of His love and Being through Jesus Christ our Lord.

BTW: Strange you mention Asimov. Back around 1990 or so I attended a series of Bible studies with Isaac Asimov's former wife, a Jewish Christian. I did like to read him when I was younger but he certainly was not the final arbiter or word when it comes to science and truth. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

"A little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God."

May God Bless, Pat

Edited June 22, 2014 by Macs Son

[MorningGlory]

 

Btw, how did we get on the topic of evolution?  That has nothing to do with the Big Bang. 

They are related, actually.  The BB gives the theory of Evolution the billions of years it needs.

 

 

I see your point.  But the earth would not have existed at the time of the creation of the universe.

[gray wolf]

if evolution happened in the way it is claimed, then why are there still monkeys and why do we not continue to evolve?

If evolution were true the fossil record would support it, but it doesn't. Most of the fossils that they have trotted out usually end up being frauds. The history of the supporters of evolution is fraught with all kinds deceptions and fraudulent claims.

Shhhhh... (they don't want to talk about that)

To be fair, we have had some dubious evidence as well.