The City of Babylon.

[Spock]

Fair enough Shiloh, but.....

You said.....

The book of Revelation tells us all about it. Too often people think that everything in Revelation is symbolic. Much of the confusion about this book stems from the fact that people are assuming symbolism and trying to fill in the blanks themselves. If people would just let the Bible speak for itself, not even Revelation is hard to understand. God means what He says.

So, it sounds like you agree SOME parts of Revelation is symbolic. I agree, and that is why I believe Rev 18 is symbolic, and not literal Babylon city.

I guess the question we all have to decide it which part is symbolic and which isn't. No doubt this will lead to divisions of interpretation and thus differences of opinion.

FYI, I actually do believe God for the most part never intended to spell out his truths that easily for mankind to decipher. I think he DESIRES for us to go deeeeeeeep to find those nuggets.

[Spock]

Qwik,

Babylon = Rome. (1 peter 5)

Love,

Spock

[Guest shiloh357]

Fair enough Shiloh, but.....

You said.....

The book of Revelation tells us all about it. Too often people think that everything in Revelation is symbolic. Much of the confusion about this book stems from the fact that people are assuming symbolism and trying to fill in the blanks themselves. If people would just let the Bible speak for itself, not even Revelation is hard to understand. God means what He says.

So, it sounds like you agree SOME parts of Revelation is symbolic. I agree, and that is why I believe Rev 18 is symbolic, and not literal Babylon city.

I guess the question we all have to decide it which part is symbolic and which isn't. No doubt this will lead to divisions of interpretation and thus differences of opinion.

FYI, I actually do believe God for the most part never intended to spell out his truths that easily for mankind to decipher. I think he DESIRES for us to go deeeeeeeep to find those nuggets.

Okay, let's go with Revelation 18.

 

What are the textual indicators that indicate in that chapter that Babylon is actually Rome?

[Spock]

Shiloh,

Actually, I've been mulling over the possibility that Rev 18 is talking about New York City. I will only show the parts that I believe allude to it from Rev 18:

The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,

and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

In her heart she boasts,

‘I sit enthroned as queen.

9“When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

“ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,

you mighty city of Babylon!

In one hour your doom has come!’

11“The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves.

14“They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out:

“ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,

dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,

and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’

“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:

“ ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,

where all who had ships on the sea

became rich through her wealth!

In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

No worker of any trade

will ever be found in you again.

The sound of a millstone

will never be heard in you again.

23The light of a lamp

will never shine in you again.

The voice of bridegroom and bride

will never be heard in you again.

Your merchants were the world’s important people.

By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

[Guest shiloh357]

So we have gone from Rome to New York City...  Can you show how those verses apply to New York City?   And which of those verses would rule out a rebuilt city of Babylon?

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Spock...

     Firstly we are assuming that Peter wrote his 1st letter to most of the Christian Jews in Asia minor from Rome,which is most probable & most would tend to agree.......but that was not what I meant when I asked you about what made you think it was not literal .It was my misunderstanding of what you meant was symbolic of Babylon....I thought you meant something other than an actual "place",a literal city....like perhaps a person ,power,etc......

     So ,I am not concerned whether or not it was Rome......as long as it is an actual city........my misunderstanding

                                                                                                                                                                                   Love,Kwik

[Spock]

Blessings Spock...

     Firstly we are assuming that Peter wrote his 1st letter to most of the Christian Jews in Asia minor from Rome,which is most probable & most would tend to agree.......but that was not what I meant when I asked you about what made you think it was not literal .It was my misunderstanding of what you meant was symbolic of Babylon....I thought you meant something other than an actual "place",a literal city....like perhaps a person ,power,etc......

     So ,I am not concerned whether or not it was Rome......as long as it is an actual city........my misunderstanding

                                                                                                                                                                                   Love,Kwik

I enjoyed talking with you and more importantly, I enjoyed your LOVE so I'm glad you had that misunderstanding.

Love back at you,

Spock out

[Spock]

So we have gone from Rome to New York City...  Can you show how those verses apply to New York City?   And which of those verses would rule out a rebuilt city of Babylon?

Shiloh, I do not want to be rude here, but the verses I pasted speak for themselves. I can see NYC written all over them. I'm not saying it is NYC, but for now, I'm open to that interpretation.

Babylon isn't even close to a large body of water (sea), and this can't mean a river.

"Was there ever a city as great as this?" Does not in any way sound like literal rebuilt Babylon on a sea.

Anyhow, what is obvious to me may not be obvious to you. Fair enough, but don't forget, even you agreed, much (or some) of Revelation is symbolic, not to be take literal. This is one of them (to me).

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Everyione

      Years ago I made myself crazy with Revelation & other one reminded me of the time I did research on the cities that claimed to be "the city built on 7 hills",,,,This is not the list from my studies (it is actually quite a lot longer).....this is from Wikipedia......I just think it is something else......LOL

 

City of Seven Hills usually refers to Rome. However, there are many cities that claim to be built on seven hills.

Contents

    1 Africa
    2 Americas
    3 Asia
    4 Australia and Oceania
    5 Europe
    6 References
    7 See also

Africa

    Ibadan, Nigeria[1]
    Kampala, Uganda[2] The hills are Mengo, Lubaga, Namirembe, Old Kampala, Kibuli, Nakasero and Makerere.

Americas

    Albany, New York[3]
    Asunción, Paraguay The city is one of the oldest in South America. The seven hills are difficult to detect, but there are. Among the 7 we mention: Cabara, Cerro Lambaré, Clavel, Tarumã, Cachinga and Tacumbú.
    Athens, Texas, United States[4]
    Cincinnati, Ohio, United States (now encompasses more than seven) [5][6]
    Ellicott City, Maryland, United States [7]
    Guaranda, Ecuador[8][9]
    Lynchburg, Virginia, United States College Hill, Garland Hill, Daniel's Hill, Federal Hill, Diamond Hill, White Rock Hill, and Franklin Hill were the original "Seven Hills" of the City of Lynchburg.[10]
    Nevada City, California, United States, built on Piety, Lost, Prospect, Aristocracy, Boulder, Nabob, and Buckeye Hills [11]
    Nixa, Missouri, United States
    Providence, Rhode Island, built on Christian Hill, College Hill, Constitution Hill, Federal Hill, Smith Hill, Tockwotten Hill, and Weybosset Hill.
    Richmond, Virginia, United States, built on numerous hills and escarpments to include Union Hill, Church Hill, Council Chamber Hill, Shockoe Hill, Gambles Hill, Navy Hill and Oregon Hill.[12]
    Rome, Georgia, United States
    Saint Paul, Minnesota, United States
    San Diego, California, United States[citation needed]
    San Francisco, California, United States (see List of hills in San Francisco, California)
    Seattle, Washington, United States (see Seven hills of Seattle)
    Seven Hills, Ohio, United States
    Somerville, Massachusetts, United States, built on Clarendon Hill, College Hill, Spring Hill, Winter Hill, Central Hill, Plowed Hill, Cobble Hill.
    Staten Island, New York, United States - Fort Hill, Ward Hill, Fox Hill, Grymes Hill, Emerson Hill, Todt Hill, and Richmond Hill.
    Tallahassee, Florida, United States
    Victoria, Argentina
    Worcester, Massachusetts, United States, built on Airport Hill, Bancroft Hill, Belmont Hill, Grafton Hill, Green Hill, Pakachoag Hill, and Vernon Hill.
    Yonkers, New York, United States[13][14]

Asia

    Amman, Jordan
    Jerusalem, Israel This important religious center is situated on seven hills, but considering the various changes of the landscape over the centuries, aren't unable to locate the hills on which the city rests.
    Macau
    Mecca, Saudi Arabia
    Mumbai Saat Dweep Samuh (now joined, into a peninsula)
    Tehran, Iran
    Thiruvananthapuram, India
    Tirumala, India In Asia, there are few cities on seven hills, except in India. One of the hill town of Tirumala is precisely where the Temple of Seven Hills, the Tirumala Venkateswara. This temple is affirmed to be the most active place of worship in the world.

Australia and Oceania

    Dunedin, New Zealand There's not hills but the exes volcanic cliffs, some of the most famous are Cargill Hill, Flagstaff Hill, Saddle Hill, Signal Hill, and Harbour Cone.
    Melbourne, Australia
    Brisbane, Australia
    Western Sydney, Australia

Europe

    Abergavenny, South Wales, United Kingdom
    Armagh, Armagh in Northern Ireland, United Kingdom
    Athens, Greece. The historical seven hills of Athens are Acropolis, Areopagus, Philopappus Hill (or Hill of the Muses), Hill of the Nymphs, Pnyx, Mount Lycabettus, and Mount Anchesmos (or Tourkovounia).
    Bamberg, Bavaria, Germany, The seven hills of Bamberg are; Cathedral Hill, Michaelsberg, Kaulberg/Obere Pfarre, Stefansberg, Jakobsberg, Altenburger Hill, and Abtsberg.
    Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain said to be built on Mont Tàber, La Rovira, El Coll, El Carmel, La Peira, El Putxet and Montjuïc
    Bath, England, United Kingdom
    Bergen, Norway (see Seven Mountains, Bergen)
    Brussels, Belgium, said to be built on St.Michielsberg, Koudenberg, Warmoesberg, Kruidtuin, Kunstberg, Zavel and St.Pietersberg
    Budapest, Hungary
    Cagliari, Sardinia, Italy
    Cáceres, Spain[15]
    Ceuta, Spain
    Coatbridge, Scotland, United Kingdom
    Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom (see Hills of Edinburgh)
    Gorzów Wielkopolski, Poland
    Iaşi, Romania (see Seven hills of Iaşi)
    Istanbul, Turkey (see Seven hills of Istanbul)
    Kaposvár, Hungary
    Kiev, Ukraine Borichev, Shchekovitsa, Starokievska and Khorevitsa.[16]
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Lviv, Ukraine
    Madrid, Spain [17]
    Moscow, Russia (See Seven hills of Moscow)
    Nijmegen, Netherlands
    Plovdiv, Bulgaria
    Prague, Czech Republic, said to be built on seven or nine hills: Hradčany, Vítkov, (Opyš), Větrov, Skalka, (Emauzy), Vyšehrad, Karlov and Petřín
    Pula, Croatia
    Rome, Italy (see Seven hills of Rome)
    Saint-Étienne, France
    Sheffield, England, United Kingdom
    Telšiai, Lithuania
    Torquay, England, United Kingdom
    Turku, Finland
    Veszprém, Hungary
    Zevenbergen, Netherlands

                                                                                                                                                                                With love -in Christ,Kwik

BTW,Spock.......thank you,,,,,,feelings are mutual,you are too kind         Glory to God!

[Hindsfeet]

jumping in here with an observation, I dont know which Babylon is Babylon (? kwim) however, something I have noticed and would like to bring to light -

 

Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

reminds me of....

Matt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

This would lead me to believe that its Rome,,Thoughts?