Prayer and fasting to cast out unbelief?

[Sevenseas]

I have always been taught or heard that the passage in Matthew 17 with reference to the disciples being unable to cast out a demon

had to do with prayer and fasting as a means to casting out a demon that was particularly 'stubborn'

 

Recently, I heard that the prayer and fasting spoken of by Jesus was actually in reference to casting out 'unbelief'

 

Here is the verse and the comments regarding unbelief

 

 

 

What's your take on this?  Anyone else ever heard it taught that the reference to prayer and fasting has to do with unbelief?

 

Please note this is not a discussion on Christians having demons or anything similar.  I am just focusing on the interpretation

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

 

Note 4 at Mt 17:21: Prayer and fasting do not drive out certain demons. If the name of Jesus and faith in His name won't do the job, fasting and prayer won't either. Jesus was saying that fasting and prayer are the only ways of casting out this type of unbelief.

An unbelief that comes as a result of ignorance can be done away with by receiving the truth of God's Word (Ro 10:17 and 2Pe 1:4). However, the unbelief that hindered the disciples in this case was a "natural" type of unbelief (see note 2 at Mt 17:20). They had been taught all of their lives to believe what their five senses told them. They were simply dominated by this natural input more than by God's supernatural input (God's Word - Lu 9:1). The only way to overcome this unbelief that comes through the senses is to deny the senses through prayer and fasting (see note 1 at Mt 4:2).

 

 

*This is on the Andrew Wommack site and someone I know is currently following him and taking his courses and I find some of his teaching is kind of out there

[Sevenseas]

Num........well, I can't find any support for Mr. W's take on that verse so guess I'll just shrug my shoulders on it.....  

[Willa]

Usually prayer and fasting is to help us to hear and obey God more accurately. It humbles us and helps us to hear God's voice. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

When the scripture says this kind does not come out but by prayer and fasting, I always understood it to mean that the disciples would need to humble themselves to hear and obey God step by step to see him fully delivered. Perhaps during the prayer and fasting God would tell them how they should go about doing it.. Perhaps it was to impress on them that there was nothing that they could do of them selves, and to help them to lean fully on God.

Andrew Wommack apparently subscribes to the Word of Faith doctrine, which I find to be in error. They over emphasize the need of faith in producing miracles and I have seen many condemned by Word of Faith pastors when a loved one died, saying the death was because their faith was not strong enough. This is just wrong.

[Guest]

I'll have to second Willamina's take on Andrew Wommack and the Word of Faith (WOF) doctrine in general. I'd suggest another teacher as well.

[disciplehelovestoo]

Mat 17:19-21

(19)  Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

(20)  And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

(21)  Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

 

the subject in verse 21 is unbelief not casting out devils - and this kind of unbelief comes out only by prayer and fasting.

 

prayer connects with God; fasting gives us control over the input of our senses.  faith casts out devils, but faith is hindered by unbelief.  unbelief takes three general forms for the reborn in Christ: ignorance of the Word, wrong teaching, and natural 5 sense input.  the disciples had likely seen the same powerful demonstration of demonic influence that Jesus saw in Mark 9:20, yet He was unmoved by this demonstration, whereas they were.  

 

Andrew Womack rightly teaches that we all have THE measure of faith (Rom 12:3); faith is the gift of God, and He is no respector of persons - faith is never the variable - unbelief or doubt hinders or binds faith; unbelief is under our control, and is made ineffective by hearing the Word of God with understanding through fellowship with God (Rom 10:14-17).

[Sevenseas]

WOF has harmed quite a few people I would think....so I certainly agree.  I don't follow them either and I would have thought the person I know that is now involved with this teaching

would have known better....it's not easy these days

[Sevenseas]

 

Mat 17:19-21

(19)  Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

(20)  And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

(21)  Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

 

the subject in verse 21 is unbelief not casting out devils - and this kind of unbelief comes out only by prayer and fasting.

 

prayer connects with God; fasting gives us control over the input of our senses.  faith casts out devils, but faith is hindered by unbelief.  unbelief takes three general forms for the reborn in Christ: ignorance of the Word, wrong teaching, and natural 5 sense input.  the disciples had likely seen the same powerful demonstration of demonic influence that Jesus saw in Mark 9:20, yet He was unmoved by this demonstration, whereas they were.  

 

Andrew Womack rightly teaches that we all have THE measure of faith (Rom 12:3); faith is the gift of God, and He is no respector of persons - faith is never the variable - unbelief or doubt hinders or binds faith; unbelief is under our control, and is made ineffective by hearing the Word of God with understanding through fellowship with God (Rom 10:14-17).

 

 

 

Why does Jesus say if you have grain like a mustard seed as pertains to faith then?  

 

I do not agree, as so many WOF adherents do, that we are to blame if God does not heal or whatever.  I do believe there are hindrances to prayer, bit I have prayed with almost no hope

or faith and yet God still answered.  

 

If we are going to interpret this and other passages, with the onus on OUR faith, then is God looking for bigger faith and those with less faith get passed over?

 

I think there are many problems with that interpretation

 

I do see where you say the subject of 21 is unbelief...but is Jesus talking about a measure of faith or some demons requiring a different approach?

(I'm not demon chasing or anything....I am just looking at the interpretation...there are other things I have read that Wommack teaches that are equally or even more ... well...certainly

not any interpretation I've come across before)

 

At any rate, I cannot really see where there is a separation between faith and belief or unbelief as if you have faith, then you believe, right?  But if you don't have ENOUGH faith, then

are we actually looking at a measure of faith and as God is not a respecter of persons, as you correctly say, then would He not hear from anyone with any faith?

 

So, are you saying that you agree with what is taught by Wommack....Jesus is saying we should pray and fast to cast out unbelief?  If you are casting out unbelief, then it sounds

like you are actually casting out a demon as many people will give evil spirits names such as unbelief, or migraine or whatever....(again, I'm not agreeing with that teaching either...

just questionning the interpretation)

[OneLight]

Isaiah 58 (NKJV)

Fasting that Pleases God

“Cry aloud, spare not;

Lift up your voice like a trumpet;

Tell My people their transgression,

And the house of Jacob their sins.

Yet they seek Me daily,

And delight to know My ways,

As a nation that did righteousness,

And did not forsake the ordinance of their God.

They ask of Me the ordinances of justice;

They take delight in approaching God.

‘Why have we fasted,’ they say, ‘and You have not seen?

Why have we afflicted our souls, and You take no notice?’

“In fact, in the day of your fast you find pleasure,

And exploit all your laborers.

Indeed you fast for strife and debate,

And to strike with the fist of wickedness.

You will not fast as you do this day,

To make your voice heard on high.

Is it a fast that I have chosen,

A day for a man to afflict his soul?

Is it to bow down his head like a bulrush,

And to spread out sackcloth and ashes?

Would you call this a fast,

And an acceptable day to the Lord?

“Is this not the fast that I have chosen:

To loose the bonds of wickedness,

To undo the heavy burdens,

To let the oppressed go free,

And that you break every yoke?

Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,

And that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out;

When you see the naked, that you cover him,

And not hide yourself from your own flesh?

Then your light shall break forth like the morning,

Your healing shall spring forth speedily,

And your righteousness shall go before you;

The glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.

Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;

You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’

“If you take away the yoke from your midst,

The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,

If you extend your soul to the hungry

And satisfy the afflicted soul,

Then your light shall dawn in the darkness,

And your darkness shall be as the noonday.

The Lord will guide you continually,

And satisfy your soul in drought,

And strengthen your bones;

You shall be like a watered garden,

And like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.

Those from among you

Shall build the old waste places;

You shall raise up the foundations of many generations;

And you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach,

The Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.

“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,

From doing your pleasure on My holy day,

And call the Sabbath a delight,

The holy day of the Lord honorable,

And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,

Nor finding your own pleasure,

Nor speaking your own words,

Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;

And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,

And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.

The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

As for Andy, I wold do my own research to have a better view of what he teaches. I have found many errors in his teachings, but that is me.

[disciplehelovestoo]

 

 

Mat 17:19-21

(19)  Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

(20)  And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

(21)  Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

 

the subject in verse 21 is unbelief not casting out devils - and this kind of unbelief comes out only by prayer and fasting.

 

prayer connects with God; fasting gives us control over the input of our senses.  faith casts out devils, but faith is hindered by unbelief.  unbelief takes three general forms for the reborn in Christ: ignorance of the Word, wrong teaching, and natural 5 sense input.  the disciples had likely seen the same powerful demonstration of demonic influence that Jesus saw in Mark 9:20, yet He was unmoved by this demonstration, whereas they were.  

 

Andrew Womack rightly teaches that we all have THE measure of faith (Rom 12:3); faith is the gift of God, and He is no respector of persons - faith is never the variable - unbelief or doubt hinders or binds faith; unbelief is under our control, and is made ineffective by hearing the Word of God with understanding through fellowship with God (Rom 10:14-17).

 

 

 

Why does Jesus say if you have grain like a mustard seed as pertains to faith then?  

 

I do not agree, as so many WOF adherents do, that we are to blame if God does not heal or whatever.  I do believe there are hindrances to prayer, bit I have prayed with almost no hope

or faith and yet God still answered.  

 

If we are going to interpret this and other passages, with the onus on OUR faith, then is God looking for bigger faith and those with less faith get passed over?

 

I think there are many problems with that interpretation

 

I do see where you say the subject of 21 is unbelief...but is Jesus talking about a measure of faith or some demons requiring a different approach?

(I'm not demon chasing or anything....I am just looking at the interpretation...there are other things I have read that Wommack teaches that are equally or even more ... well...certainly

not any interpretation I've come across before)

 

At any rate, I cannot really see where there is a separation between faith and belief or unbelief as if you have faith, then you believe, right?  But if you don't have ENOUGH faith, then

are we actually looking at a measure of faith and as God is not a respecter of persons, as you correctly say, then would He not hear from anyone with any faith?

 

So, are you saying that you agree with what is taught by Wommack....Jesus is saying we should pray and fast to cast out unbelief?  If you are casting out unbelief, then it sounds

like you are actually casting out a demon as many people will give evil spirits names such as unbelief, or migraine or whatever....(again, I'm not agreeing with that teaching either...

just questionning the interpretation)

 

 

please ask about specific scripture with reference(s); i can't tell what scripture you're asking about in your first question.

 

our very salvation is based on faith - believing God's word above every other report - why would healing be different?  i don't know why you're asking me about 'bigger faith' since i clearly said that all have the same amount based on Rom 12:3 - God's faith - the ability to believe in a virgin birth, resurrection from the dead, healing, prosperity, etc. is a gift from God; His faith is never the variable because He is not variable.

 

hen came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

(20)  And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief

 

the disciples asked why they couldn't cast out this demon, and Jesus plainly told them 'because of your unbelief'; not 'because of your little faith', or 'because this demon is different from other demons'.

 

God's faith comes from His Spirit to our soul (mind, will and emotions) and is based exclusively on His revealed written word; carnal faith comes from our intelligence and is based on experience and what we perceive with the 5 senses.  

 

Mar 9:22-25

(22)  And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

(23)  Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

(24)  And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

(25)  When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

 

the father obviously had doubts (unbelief) in his mind, yet also believed with his heart - and Jesus told him 'If thou canst believe', clearly putting the responsibility to believe on the father - and we see that his son was set free from the demon, indicating that the father's 'heart' faith was effective even when there were doubts in his 'head' faith.  where is there any reference to the amount of faith being the deciding factor in scripture?  please look closely at any examples you think you find before you answer.

 

Healing is just like salvation:

 

God isn't saving anyone today; God has already made salvation available to everyone - people receive salvation by placing faith in what He has already accomplished through Jesus at the cross.

 

God isn't healing anyone today; God has already made healing available to everyone - people receive healing by placing faith in what He has already accomplished through Jesus at the whipping post.

 

i have listened to almost all of andrew womack's teachings and been a partner of his for years, and i don't know of him ever teaching that a lack of faith is why some people don't receive from God.  i have seen many many people receive miracles by placing faith in what God has already made available at the whipping post through Jesus as a result of studying what Andrew teaches about what the scriptures say about healing.  this is not to say that everything he teaches is absolute Truth - he is not Jesus any more than either of us are.

 

when i read what i posted, i don't see how you got the idea that we are to cast out unbelief as we do demons; we are to renew our minds with God's word, and as we gain revelation knowledge of His word through fellowship with Him, our unbelief is reduced by renewing the mind.  however, fasting helps us to control our flesh rather than be dominated by it, so that when we see a powerful manifestation of demonic influence such as when the boy rolled around, foamed at the mouth, threw himself in the fire, etc.; we will be better able to reject what our eyes and ears tell us in preference to what God's word says.

 

you don't have to take my word for it, you can listen to his "God wants you well" teaching series for free download from his website (no cost means no excuse )

[OneLight]

Andrew has made many claims about creation, Jesus, Satan and God that are not scriptural, such of claiming that God spoke Jesus into existence through men. Not so alarming is his claim that God spoke man into existence. These are just two examples of how his teachings should be researched and reviewed before taking his word to heart.

DO THE RESEARCH.