Is Gog/Magog War=Armageddon War

[Salty]

Lets look at Daniel 12: 11-13 - From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that cause desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.  Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.  As for you, go your way till the end.  You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

 

It appears that after the full 70th Week of Daniel there is an additional 30 day period and a 45 day period after which Daniel will rise to receive his inheritance.  So the end of days is after the 30 and 45 extra day periods.  This is when the Second Coming happens.  The end of days is the beginning of the Mill. 

 

Dan 12:7 - The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever saying, "It will be for a time, times, and half a time.  When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed".

 

Salty, does this "all these things will be completed" bother you in any way.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The only problem is that "time, times, and half a time" is the 3.5 years, or 1260 days of the latter half of Daniel's "one week" per Dan.9:27. The phrase "all these things shall be finished" (KJV) points to the end of that 3.5 years period, which means the end of the tribulation period. The 30 and 45 days after that point to the time of cleansing of the sanctuary with the establishing of Ezekiel's temple and Christ's priests and kings. It must be remembered that the defeat of the Antichrist and his beast kingdom will only occur with Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord", and that's to occur at the end of that 3.5 years, completing the "one week" of Dan.9:27.

[iamlamad]

 

Forget "deleting" or "adding." Just understand that Jesus did NOT put a title on any time period. Take off your preconceived glasses and read exactly what it says: there will be "those days" of "great tribulation." And we know "those days" will have greater tribulation than any time past or future. Why is that? It will be just like a Jew trying to hide in Berlin in 1943, but this time it will be worldwide. "Tribulation" or great pressure put on people could not be worse that for a Jew hiding in Berlin back then. It was just about 100% guaranteed he or she would be put to death. It will be the same for "those days" coming, except this time it will be worldwide: there will be very few places to hide.

 

 

The Beast has been given 42 months of authority. He could have been allowed to continue his murderous rampage for the entire 42 months, but God will pour out the vials of His wrath that will cause "great tribulation" to cease. After the vials, no one will be out hunting down a believer to kill him or her.  So "those days" where people will be forced to take the mark and worship the idol or lose their head will be "shortened," they will not continue for the entire 42 months of the Beast's God given authority. HOWEVER, He will still have His 42 months of authority. That is written and cannot be changed. What will be shortened is the number of days believers and Hebrews will be hunted down and murdered.

 

This is not "deleting" what Jesus said, it is UNDERSTANDING it. Why not just say what Jesus said, there will be days of great tribulation? No one knows how many days or how long after the abomination God will wait before He begins the vials of His wrath.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You've already worn that old hat out. It doesn't work.

 

That "great tribulation" per those Scriptures of God's Word is about a specific time upon the earth. It is marked by the beginning placement of the "abomination of desolation" Jesus mentioned along with it from the Book of Daniel.

 

So are you going to write "the great tribulation" again, or have you learned to write, "those days" of "great tribulation?"

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

Lets look at Daniel 12: 11-13 - From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that cause desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.  Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.  As for you, go your way till the end.  You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

 

It appears that after the full 70th Week of Daniel there is an additional 30 day period and a 45 day period after which Daniel will rise to receive his inheritance.  So the end of days is after the 30 and 45 extra day periods.  This is when the Second Coming happens.  The end of days is the beginning of the Mill. 

 

Dan 12:7 - The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever saying, "It will be for a time, times, and half a time.  When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed".

 

Salty, does this "all these things will be completed" bother you in any way.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The only problem is that "time, times, and half a time" is the 3.5 years, or 1260 days of the latter half of Daniel's "one week" per Dan.9:27. The phrase "all these things shall be finished" (KJV) points to the end of that 3.5 years period, which means the end of the tribulation period. The 30 and 45 days after that point to the time of cleansing of the sanctuary with the establishing of Ezekiel's temple and Christ's priests and kings. It must be remembered that the defeat of the Antichrist and his beast kingdom will only occur with Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord", and that's to occur at the end of that 3.5 years, completing the "one week" of Dan.9:27.

 

WRONG again. Salty, why not take a year sabatical and start over?

 

Let's begin here: the 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the mid point and the 7th vial ends the week. Anyone could count days from the abomination and realize His coming would be on day 1260....that is if what  you wrote was truth - which it is not. NO ONE will know the day He comes on the white horse.

 

So what do you read in YOUR bible, between the 7th vial and His coming in chapter 19? Most bibles include chapters 17 & 18, covering TIME after the 7th vial has ended the week, before Jesus comes in chapter 19. We read of the destruction of Babylon, then in chapter 19, we read of the marriage and supper. So when you write:

 

"with Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord", and that's to occur at the end of that 3.5 years, completing the "one week" of Dan.9:27"

 

Just know that is ERROR. Christ will NOT come at the end of the last 3 1/2 years. The bible does not say He does. That is human reasoning with no scripture to back it. Jesus will CERTAINLY come after the last 3 1/2 years, but not ON the last day. There will be TIME for the marriage and supper in heaven, and the destruction of Babylon, the city of Jerusalem on earth.

Then, AFTER the marriage and supper, Jesus will get on His white horse and return to earth.

 

Next, you have erred twice in saying His coming will bring in the day of the Lord. Go back and read: JOHN tells us, inspired by the Holy Spirit, that the "Day of the Lord" will begin with the 6th seal earthquake and signs in the sun and moon, MORE THAN 7 YEARS before Jesus returns on His white horse. So in this statement you are more than 7 years off.  Don't even think of writing that the 6th seal and Christ's coming will be at the same time. Then you would be adding MORE error. The 6th seal will be the BEGINNING of the Day of the Lord. Jesus will return on His white horse more than 7 years after the 6th seal event.

 

You are correct that the time, times and half of time is for the last half of the 70th week.

 

When Jesus returns, some UNKNOWN time after the 7th vial has ended the week, He will fulfill all that Daniel wrote.

 

LAMAD

Edited August 4, 2014 by iamlamad

[Salty]

 

 

Forget "deleting" or "adding." Just understand that Jesus did NOT put a title on any time period. Take off your preconceived glasses and read exactly what it says: there will be "those days" of "great tribulation." And we know "those days" will have greater tribulation than any time past or future. Why is that? It will be just like a Jew trying to hide in Berlin in 1943, but this time it will be worldwide. "Tribulation" or great pressure put on people could not be worse that for a Jew hiding in Berlin back then. It was just about 100% guaranteed he or she would be put to death. It will be the same for "those days" coming, except this time it will be worldwide: there will be very few places to hide.

 

 

The Beast has been given 42 months of authority. He could have been allowed to continue his murderous rampage for the entire 42 months, but God will pour out the vials of His wrath that will cause "great tribulation" to cease. After the vials, no one will be out hunting down a believer to kill him or her.  So "those days" where people will be forced to take the mark and worship the idol or lose their head will be "shortened," they will not continue for the entire 42 months of the Beast's God given authority. HOWEVER, He will still have His 42 months of authority. That is written and cannot be changed. What will be shortened is the number of days believers and Hebrews will be hunted down and murdered.

 

This is not "deleting" what Jesus said, it is UNDERSTANDING it. Why not just say what Jesus said, there will be days of great tribulation? No one knows how many days or how long after the abomination God will wait before He begins the vials of His wrath.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You've already worn that old hat out. It doesn't work.

 

That "great tribulation" per those Scriptures of God's Word is about a specific time upon the earth. It is marked by the beginning placement of the "abomination of desolation" Jesus mentioned along with it from the Book of Daniel.

 

So are you going to write "the great tribulation" again, or have you learned to write, "those days" of "great tribulation?"

 

LAMAD

 

 

Excuse me, I meant to say 'the great tribulation', which of course Jesus taught in His Olivet Discourse, and that is in the Dan.12:1 Scripture.

[Salty]

WRONG again. Salty, why not take a year sabatical and start over?

 

 

Let's begin here: the 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the mid point and the 7th vial ends the week. Anyone could count days from the abomination and realize His coming would be on day 1260....that is if what  you wrote was truth - which it is not. NO ONE will know the day He comes on the white horse.

 

 

Each symbolic 'week' of the 70 weeks prophecy does equal 7 years, which is understood by the fulfillment of the previous 69 weeks by what's given in Dan.9.

 

The seals, trumpets, and vials in conjunction with the 70 weeks prophecy must be understood according to the type of events. The 7th trumpet does not align with the mid point of the "one week". Nor does the 7th seal align with the start of the "one week" of Dan.9:27. The 7th vial and 7th trumpet do align with the end of the 70th week, so you got that partially correct.

[Salty]

 

So what do you read in YOUR bible, between the 7th vial and His coming in chapter 19? Most bibles include chapters 17 & 18, covering TIME after the 7th vial has ended the week, before Jesus comes in chapter 19. We read of the destruction of Babylon, then in chapter 19, we read of the marriage and supper. So when you write:

 

"with Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord", and that's to occur at the end of that 3.5 years, completing the "one week" of Dan.9:27"

 

Just know that is ERROR. Christ will NOT come at the end of the last 3 1/2 years. The bible does not say He does. That is human reasoning with no scripture to back it. Jesus will CERTAINLY come after the last 3 1/2 years, but not ON the last day. There will be TIME for the marriage and supper in heaven, and the destruction of Babylon, the city of Jerusalem on earth.

Then, AFTER the marriage and supper, Jesus will get on His white horse and return to earth.

 

Jesus returns On the 7th Vial. That's why within the 6th Vial timing He warned His Church that He comes "as a thief", and then the next event is the battle of Armageddon, per Rev.16. 2 Thess.2 reveals the Antichrist is destroyed with the 'brightness' of Jesus' coming, and that's when the Antichrist's reign will end, which is the end of the Rev.13 42 months the dragon is given to reign. This is really easy, but you obviously have it mixed up.

[Salty]

 

 

Next, you have erred twice in saying His coming will bring in the day of the Lord. Go back and read: JOHN tells us, inspired by the Holy Spirit, that the "Day of the Lord" will begin with the 6th seal earthquake and signs in the sun and moon, MORE THAN 7 YEARS before Jesus returns on His white horse. So in this statement you are more than 7 years off.  Don't even think of writing that the 6th seal and Christ's coming will be at the same time. Then you would be adding MORE error. The 6th seal will be the BEGINNING of the Day of the Lord. Jesus will return on His white horse more than 7 years after the 6th seal event.

 

 

 

The 6th Seal has events that align with Jesus' second coming, which is why those are trying to hide from Him with wanting for the mountains and rocks to fall on them, which is a prophetic marker in other NT Scripture about the time of shame upon the wicked at Christ's coming.

 

Rev.6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Those are "day of the Lord" events per the OT prophets, and even covers the Blessed are the barren parable He gave to those in Jerusalem who wept for Him on the way to His crucifixion.

 

Don't like that pointing to the day of His coming? Then you've obviously got a problem, because it's plainly written what those events are there.

[iamlamad]

 

 

So what do you read in YOUR bible, between the 7th vial and His coming in chapter 19? Most bibles include chapters 17 & 18, covering TIME after the 7th vial has ended the week, before Jesus comes in chapter 19. We read of the destruction of Babylon, then in chapter 19, we read of the marriage and supper. So when you write:

 

"with Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord", and that's to occur at the end of that 3.5 years, completing the "one week" of Dan.9:27"

 

Just know that is ERROR. Christ will NOT come at the end of the last 3 1/2 years. The bible does not say He does. That is human reasoning with no scripture to back it. Jesus will CERTAINLY come after the last 3 1/2 years, but not ON the last day. There will be TIME for the marriage and supper in heaven, and the destruction of Babylon, the city of Jerusalem on earth.

Then, AFTER the marriage and supper, Jesus will get on His white horse and return to earth.

 

Jesus returns On the 7th Vial. That's why within the 6th Vial timing He warned His Church that He comes "as a thief", and then the next event is the battle of Armageddon, per Rev.16. 2 Thess.2 reveals the Antichrist is destroyed with the 'brightness' of Jesus' coming, and that's when the Antichrist's reign will end, which is the end of the Rev.13 42 months the dragon is given to reign. This is really easy, but you obviously have it mixed up.

 

So you are going to be someone that misses the marriage and supper? There are many on this forum that will miss it. If you desire to ignore what Jesus said, you certainly can.  He said "immediately after." You wish to just take "immediately" and ignore the "after." It is impossible to come "after" and "on" at the same time.

 

Coming "as a thief" means coming at a time NO ONE KNOWS. If He came on the 7th vial, which ends the week, and which will be 1260 days from the abomination, EVERYONE would know when He would come, and it would not be as a thief. Do you really understand that a thief comes when no one is suspecting?

 

Do you imagine that what is written in chapters 17 & 18 take NO TIME?  WAKE UP! How long do you think it would take for the combined armies of ten nations to arrive in Israel and begin to take the city of Jerusalem? How long do you think it will take for the marriage and supper? That will not be an instant event, and it cannot begin until the Old Testament saints have risen, which will happen at the 7th vial. The marriage MUST wait for them, for they are the guests.

 

Did you not notice that the beginning of the 42 months of the reign of the antichrist is given last, after the time of fleeing and protection, after the time of the two witnesses and after the 42 months of trampling? Does it not make sense then that his 42 months of authority will end last, exactly as John has written it? People can begin counting when they see the two witnesses arrive (11:3). They can begin counting when the man of sin with His armies arrive in Jerusalem (11:1-2). They can begin counting when they see the abomination. (11:15)(the 7th trumpet is sounded in heaven to mark the abomination on earth.) These counts will all end on or very near the 7th vial that ends the week. If Jesus came then, He could not come as a thief. However, John shows us very plainly that He will remain in heaven for the marriage and supper after the week has ended. NO ONE will know how long He will remain in heaven after the 7th vial has ended the week. This is what is written.

 

"the next event is the battle of Armageddon, per Rev.16."

 

Why do you move the battle of Armageddon from chapter 19, where John wrote it, to chapter 16 in your immagination?

 

Axiom on Revelation:

 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL be proven wrong.

 

Your theory will certianly be proven wrong. This may be a novel idea for you, but why not just leave things in the order John wrote them? The 70th week ends at the 7th vial, in chapter 16.  Jesus returns in chapter 19, "immediately after" the tribulation. There are events and TIME between these two chapters.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Next, you have erred twice in saying His coming will bring in the day of the Lord. Go back and read: JOHN tells us, inspired by the Holy Spirit, that the "Day of the Lord" will begin with the 6th seal earthquake and signs in the sun and moon, MORE THAN 7 YEARS before Jesus returns on His white horse. So in this statement you are more than 7 years off.  Don't even think of writing that the 6th seal and Christ's coming will be at the same time. Then you would be adding MORE error. The 6th seal will be the BEGINNING of the Day of the Lord. Jesus will return on His white horse more than 7 years after the 6th seal event.

 

 

 

The 6th Seal has events that align with Jesus' second coming, which is why those are trying to hide from Him with wanting for the mountains and rocks to fall on them, which is a prophetic marker in other NT Scripture about the time of shame upon the wicked at Christ's coming.

 

Rev.6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Those are "day of the Lord" events per the OT prophets, and even covers the Blessed are the barren parable He gave to those in Jerusalem who wept for Him on the way to His crucifixion.

 

Don't like that pointing to the day of His coming? Then you've obviously got a problem, because it's plainly written what those events are there.

 

So you are yet another person confused about John's chronology, and think both John and the Holy Spirit were mixed up in their timing. Please refer to the "Axiom on Revelation" in post 122. Your theory will certainly be proven wrong. John was not mixed up. The Holy Spirit was not mixed up. The 6th seal is the BEGINNING of the Day of the Lord, exactly as John wrote it. You do know that 6 comes before 7?  How silly it would be to think 6 comes after 7.

 

The 7th seal marks the BEGINNING of the 70th week. The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week. The 7th vial marks the END of the week. So BETWEEEN the 6th seal and the 7th vial there are 1260 days of the first half, then 1260 days of the 2nd half of the week, proving your theory is wrong.

 

Once again, why not just BELIEVE John as he wrote it? Why do you feel this urge to rearrange? Why do you think John used numbers? Of course they are for SEQUENCING.

 

The TRUTH is, the numbered events will come in the exact order John numbered them, meaning, the 7th seal will come AFTER the 6th seal. NO trumpet will sound until all 7 seals are broken so the scroll can be unrolled to reveal the trumpets. NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded. The second woe cannot come until the first woe has come. The thrid woe cannot come until the second woe has come. For the most part (the exception being what is written as a parenthesis) what is written in one chapter will certainly come to pass AFTER the events of a previous chapter and BEFORE the events of later chapters. This is the way this book is written. ANY theory that must rearrange this God given order will be wrong. Plain and simple.

 

LAMAD

[Montana Marv]

A view of Armageddon;

 

Daniel 11: 36 - 45 - At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, the king of the North will storm out against him..  But reports from the East (200,000,000) and the North will alarm him.   And he will pitch his royal tents between the sea and the holy mountain (Jerusalem - Isa 66:20).  He will come to his end and nobody will help him.

 

These armies first try to engage and fight against Satan, They are not going after Israel, then the fight go to Armageddon and with Christ.

 

Ezk 39 and 38 is different, seven years earlier.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv