Is Gog/Magog War=Armageddon War

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Forget "deleting" or "adding." Just understand that Jesus did NOT put a title on any time period. Take off your preconceived glasses and read exactly what it says: there will be "those days" of "great tribulation." And we know "those days" will have greater tribulation than any time past or future. Why is that? It will be just like a Jew trying to hide in Berlin in 1943, but this time it will be worldwide. "Tribulation" or great pressure put on people could not be worse that for a Jew hiding in Berlin back then. It was just about 100% guaranteed he or she would be put to death. It will be the same for "those days" coming, except this time it will be worldwide: there will be very few places to hide.

 

 

The Beast has been given 42 months of authority. He could have been allowed to continue his murderous rampage for the entire 42 months, but God will pour out the vials of His wrath that will cause "great tribulation" to cease. After the vials, no one will be out hunting down a believer to kill him or her.  So "those days" where people will be forced to take the mark and worship the idol or lose their head will be "shortened," they will not continue for the entire 42 months of the Beast's God given authority. HOWEVER, He will still have His 42 months of authority. That is written and cannot be changed. What will be shortened is the number of days believers and Hebrews will be hunted down and murdered.

 

This is not "deleting" what Jesus said, it is UNDERSTANDING it. Why not just say what Jesus said, there will be days of great tribulation? No one knows how many days or how long after the abomination God will wait before He begins the vials of His wrath.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You've already worn that old hat out. It doesn't work.

 

That "great tribulation" per those Scriptures of God's Word is about a specific time upon the earth. It is marked by the beginning placement of the "abomination of desolation" Jesus mentioned along with it from the Book of Daniel.

 

So are you going to write "the great tribulation" again, or have you learned to write, "those days" of "great tribulation?"

 

LAMAD

 

 

Excuse me, I meant to say 'the great tribulation', which of course Jesus taught in His Olivet Discourse, and that is in the Dan.12:1 Scripture.

 

Sorry, NO "THE" in Mat. 24:21  "then shall be great tribulation"  22: "those days be shortened"

 

But you are in luck, Jesus DID use a "the" here, and it is even in the Greek texts:

 

"²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

 

Lamad

Edited August 5, 2014 by iamlamad

[Guest Jesse]

Spock.

 

Before the second coming there will be the 3rd ww. Men against men.

Christ will cut that war short by appearing in the clouds.

Then three froglike expressions will come out of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet

to gather  both sides together to make war with the Lamb.

This will be armageddon;the war between men and the Lamb.

This war will only take one day;and babylon will be destroyed.

The cities of the nations will be no more.Christ will be in charge.

All the dead will be buried in the valey of Hinom.

 

The war of gog and magog will be after the thousand year reign of Christ.

The gentiles  have multiplied during the thousand years, and have not accepted the teachings of the saints,will follow satan to surround the camp of the saints.

Then fire will come down from heaven from God and destroy them,and satan.

All will be buried in the valey of hamongog.

Then the second judgement.

[iamlamad]

 

WRONG again. Salty, why not take a year sabatical and start over?

 

 

Let's begin here: the 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the mid point and the 7th vial ends the week. Anyone could count days from the abomination and realize His coming would be on day 1260....that is if what  you wrote was truth - which it is not. NO ONE will know the day He comes on the white horse.

 

 

Each symbolic 'week' of the 70 weeks prophecy does equal 7 years, which is understood by the fulfillment of the previous 69 weeks by what's given in Dan.9.

 

The seals, trumpets, and vials in conjunction with the 70 weeks prophecy must be understood according to the type of events. The 7th trumpet does not align with the mid point of the "one week". Nor does the 7th seal align with the start of the "one week" of Dan.9:27. The 7th vial and 7th trumpet do align with the end of the 70th week, so you got that partially correct.

 

This theory is complete MYTH. There is very little difference in rearranging and adding or subtracting. Any attempt to CHANGE this book will be proven as error.

 

The truth is, the entire 70th week is clearly marked by 7's. This is the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. You can ignore this if you wish, but when these events take place, this will be found true, since God's words can never fail.

 

LAMAD

[Guest Jesse]

I'm sure this has been discussed, but I couldn't find a thread so here goes.

As of today I believe they are DIFFERENT wars. I believe the Gog War will commence before the 70th week of Daniel. I believe the Armageddon War to be at the end of Daniels 70th week.

I do see similarities, most especially the fact that God is the reason for the victory and not man, but unless I can see more irrefutable evidence, that isn't enough for me to change my thoughts.

I open this thread to see if either I can be persuaded to believe otherwise, or to confirm what I presently believe.

Thanks to all who get involved in a Christ honoring discussion here

Spock out

Oakwood.

 

Please read, and you will see that the false prophet will be in charge of the world.

Without the number, no one cando any business such as import and export.

And no one can go shopping nor open a shop.

 

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[Salty]

 

 

Each symbolic 'week' of the 70 weeks prophecy does equal 7 years, which is understood by the fulfillment of the previous 69 weeks by what's given in Dan.9.

 

The seals, trumpets, and vials in conjunction with the 70 weeks prophecy must be understood according to the type of events. The 7th trumpet does not align with the mid point of the "one week". Nor does the 7th seal align with the start of the "one week" of Dan.9:27. The 7th vial and 7th trumpet do align with the end of the 70th week, so you got that partially correct.

 

This theory is complete MYTH. There is very little difference in rearranging and adding or subtracting. Any attempt to CHANGE this book will be proven as error.

 

The truth is, the entire 70th week is clearly marked by 7's. This is the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. You can ignore this if you wish, but when these events take place, this will be found true, since God's words can never fail.

 

LAMAD

 

 

So why are you trying to change it then? I definitely am not.

 

Because of the prophecy given in Dan.9 involving the events of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of Christ and His being 'cut off' fulfilled 69 sevens of the prophecy. The sevens equal 'weeks' to represent years by that, which is why the KJV translators used the idea of "one week" for the 70th seven in Dan.9:27 which is still yet to be fulfilled.

 

Thus the 70th week, or "one week" of Dan.9:27, equals a period of one seven, or seven years.

 

The Dan.9:27 divides that "one week" (seven years) in half, 1260 days before and 1260 days after.

 

So those who keep claiming that "one week" of Dan.9:27 isn't about a seven year period do so out of Biblical ignorance.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Each symbolic 'week' of the 70 weeks prophecy does equal 7 years, which is understood by the fulfillment of the previous 69 weeks by what's given in Dan.9.

 

The seals, trumpets, and vials in conjunction with the 70 weeks prophecy must be understood according to the type of events. The 7th trumpet does not align with the mid point of the "one week". Nor does the 7th seal align with the start of the "one week" of Dan.9:27. The 7th vial and 7th trumpet do align with the end of the 70th week, so you got that partially correct.

 

This theory is complete MYTH. There is very little difference in rearranging and adding or subtracting. Any attempt to CHANGE this book will be proven as error.

 

The truth is, the entire 70th week is clearly marked by 7's. This is the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. You can ignore this if you wish, but when these events take place, this will be found true, since God's words can never fail.

 

LAMAD

 

 

So why are you trying to change it then? I definitely am not.

 

Because of the prophecy given in Dan.9 involving the events of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of Christ and His being 'cut off' fulfilled 69 sevens of the prophecy. The sevens equal 'weeks' to represent years by that, which is why the KJV translators used the idea of "one week" for the 70th seven in Dan.9:27 which is still yet to be fulfilled.

 

Thus the 70th week, or "one week" of Dan.9:27, equals a period of one seven, or seven years.

 

The Dan.9:27 divides that "one week" (seven years) in half, 1260 days before and 1260 days after.

 

So those who keep claiming that "one week" of Dan.9:27 isn't about a seven year period do so out of Biblical ignorance.

 

That is a nice side-step. I have never said anything about the 70th week of Daniel not being 7 years. OF COURSE it will be 7 years. Daniel told us twice that the second half of the week would be 3 1/2 years, and John told us five more times. Daniel told us the abomination event would divide the week into two equal halves, and we see that in Revelation. Those living in Judea (th woman) will flee in 12:6. Therefore, that verse is perhaps one second after the abomination event. Back up from there and look. The event is the 7th trumpet sounding. It will sound in heaven the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God. One second or so, those living in Judea who see this (perhaps on TV?) will flee. This fleeing marks chapters 11 & 12 as midpoint chapters.

 

You can argue this point until the cows come home, but you would still be wrong. I was just minding my own business, reading Dan. 9:27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst," God spoke. I heard his voice and His words:  "You could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week clearly marked." He then told me how to find that exact midpoint "clearly marked." When He added that I could find the entire 70th week clearly marked, I understood by the Holy Spirit that it was because the marker for the beginning and end would be the same marker as the midpoint. The moment I found the 7th trumpet as the marker for the midpoint, I flipped quickly to the 7th vial, and saw the last three words as "it is done." I rushed to the 7th seal, and saw the 30 minutes of silence and knew that I had found what He sent me to find.

 

I know tradition says the week begins with the first seal. Tradition is often wrong and is certainly wrong here. Tradition says the rapture is Rev. 4:1. Again, tradition is very wrong. That is John being caught up.  Most readers completely miss the intent of chapters 4 & 5. They are the context of the first seals, and show us the timing of those first seals were as soon as Jesus arrived in heaven, right after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. John got to see, in vision form, the very moment Jesus arrived back in the throne room after rising from the dead. The moment He arrived, He got the book and began breaking the seals.  It is simply impossible that the 70th week begins with the first seal, for that seal was broken around 32 AD.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

 

 

 

So what do you read in YOUR bible, between the 7th vial and His coming in chapter 19? Most bibles include chapters 17 & 18, covering TIME after the 7th vial has ended the week, before Jesus comes in chapter 19. We read of the destruction of Babylon, then in chapter 19, we read of the marriage and supper. So when you write:

 

"with Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord", and that's to occur at the end of that 3.5 years, completing the "one week" of Dan.9:27"

 

Just know that is ERROR. Christ will NOT come at the end of the last 3 1/2 years. The bible does not say He does. That is human reasoning with no scripture to back it. Jesus will CERTAINLY come after the last 3 1/2 years, but not ON the last day. There will be TIME for the marriage and supper in heaven, and the destruction of Babylon, the city of Jerusalem on earth.

Then, AFTER the marriage and supper, Jesus will get on His white horse and return to earth.

 

Jesus returns On the 7th Vial. That's why within the 6th Vial timing He warned His Church that He comes "as a thief", and then the next event is the battle of Armageddon, per Rev.16. 2 Thess.2 reveals the Antichrist is destroyed with the 'brightness' of Jesus' coming, and that's when the Antichrist's reign will end, which is the end of the Rev.13 42 months the dragon is given to reign. This is really easy, but you obviously have it mixed up.

 

So you are going to be someone that misses the marriage and supper? There are many on this forum that will miss it. If you desire to ignore what Jesus said, you certainly can.  He said "immediately after." You wish to just take "immediately" and ignore the "after." It is impossible to come "after" and "on" at the same time.

 

Coming "as a thief" means coming at a time NO ONE KNOWS. If He came on the 7th vial, which ends the week, and which will be 1260 days from the abomination, EVERYONE would know when He would come, and it would not be as a thief. Do you really understand that a thief comes when no one is suspecting?

 

Do you imagine that what is written in chapters 17 & 18 take NO TIME?  WAKE UP! How long do you think it would take for the combined armies of ten nations to arrive in Israel and begin to take the city of Jerusalem? How long do you think it will take for the marriage and supper? That will not be an instant event, and it cannot begin until the Old Testament saints have risen, which will happen at the 7th vial. The marriage MUST wait for them, for they are the guests.

 

Did you not notice that the beginning of the 42 months of the reign of the antichrist is given last, after the time of fleeing and protection, after the time of the two witnesses and after the 42 months of trampling? Does it not make sense then that his 42 months of authority will end last, exactly as John has written it? People can begin counting when they see the two witnesses arrive (11:3). They can begin counting when the man of sin with His armies arrive in Jerusalem (11:1-2). They can begin counting when they see the abomination. (11:15)(the 7th trumpet is sounded in heaven to mark the abomination on earth.) These counts will all end on or very near the 7th vial that ends the week. If Jesus came then, He could not come as a thief. However, John shows us very plainly that He will remain in heaven for the marriage and supper after the week has ended. NO ONE will know how long He will remain in heaven after the 7th vial has ended the week. This is what is written.

 

"the next event is the battle of Armageddon, per Rev.16."

 

Why do you move the battle of Armageddon from chapter 19, where John wrote it, to chapter 16 in your immagination?

 

Axiom on Revelation:

 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL be proven wrong.

 

Your theory will certianly be proven wrong. This may be a novel idea for you, but why not just leave things in the order John wrote them? The 70th week ends at the 7th vial, in chapter 16.  Jesus returns in chapter 19, "immediately after" the tribulation. There are events and TIME between these two chapters.

 

LAMAD

 

 

If you're listening to those Pre-trib secret rapture preachers, then I can fathom how you got so confused about those Scriptures.

 

In 1 Thess.5, the next chapter after Apostle Paul had explained Christ's coming and gathering of the Church, he showed that Christ's coming is not to be a surprise to the faithful in Christ's Church.

 

1 Thess.5

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

 

So why are you wrongly thinking Christ's coming is supposed to be a surprise upon His Church, because Apostle Paul said just the opposite?

 

I know why you think that, it's because of who you've been listening to, charlatans that trick souls with their pre-trib rapture ideas. In Ezek.13 God said He is against the pastors that preach for His people to fly to save their souls.

 

Look at what Paul said again in that 1 Thess.5:4 verse. He showed the coming of the day of the Lord, which is when Jesus returns, will be as a thief, but to whom? To those in 'darkness'. The true faithful of Christ's servants who wait for His return are not... in darkness that that day should overtake us 'as a thief'.

 

Likewise in Rev.16:15 Jesus is giving that same kind of warning. It's those who will not 'watch' to keep their 'garments' that His coming will be "as a thief" upon, not His faithful Church that will continue to make a stand for Him waiting for His return to end the coming tribulation.

 

"But wait a minute", you might say, "that all goes against what Jesus said that no man knows the day or hour"! Very correct that no man knows the day or hour of Christ's coming.. We don't know the day nor the hour, we, His Faithful Church, only know the events to occur leading up... to His return which He and His Apostles gave us, and not the specific day or hour of His return.

 

 

Have you really ever wondered why the Pre-trib Rapture Churches don't teach Christ's and His Apostle's warnings about a specific coming Pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem to play God The Son? Since the basis of their Pre-trib secret Rapture theory is that the Church is raptured prior to the tribulation, they have to say that Pseudo-Christ event is for the Jews, and not upon Christ's Church. How convenient.

 

Yet that is exactly the kind of "darkness" Apostle Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5:4. How exactly?

 

If the believer is not aware per Scripture like Matt.24:23-26 from our Lord Jesus that a Pseudo-Christ is to come first to deceive, then they may well be deceived by that false one coming in the role of Christ, and truly think he is our Lord Jesus, when that one will be a FAKE. Brethren that are taken in by that deception, in that kind of spiritual 'darkness', will already think Jesus has returned, and everything is just hunky-dory.

 

Yet when our True Lord Jesus Christ returns later to destroy that Pseudo-Christ, what emotion will overcome those deceived brethren in darkness? Jesus' coming to them will be just how a thief takes one by surprise breaking into one's house at midnight. Those deceived brethren will be taken totally by surprise, because they will have thought Jesus had already returned, when they instead fell into deception by believing the Pseudo-Christ is Jesus.

 

Apostle Paul gave this warning in 2 Cor.11 about the "another Jesus". It's what he was talking about there too to those in Christ's Church.

 

But you say we who are not in "darkness" about these things are in trouble for not accepting that Pre-trib Rapture theory devised by charlatans and the deceived who follow them?

[Montana Marv]

Salty

 

We will know Jesus by the nail prints in His hands and the wound in His side.  Those being deceived are not the Bride.  Israel might be deceived at the beginning; Christians won't be deceived.  One who has the HS in them cannot be deceived, No matter what their timing of the Rapture is.

 

Both of your are most likely wrong.

 

And your garment question;  This was perplexing for the Mormons, so when they took a bath, they kept one arm in a sleeve of their garment and then put it in another garment and then washed the other side.  Not be be unclothed.

 

What would happen if you died in a bathtub, is that person going to hell, because they did not have their garment on.  Mormon's took it seriously.  They could lose their salvation if they died unclothed.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Salty]

Salty

 

We will know Jesus by the nail prints in His hands and the wound in His side.  Those being deceived are not the Bride.  Israel might be deceived at the beginning; Christians won't be deceived.  One who has the HS in them cannot be deceived, No matter what their timing of the Rapture is.

 

Both of your are most likely wrong.

 

And your garment question;  This was perplexing for the Mormons, so when they took a bath, they kept one arm in a sleeve of their garment and then put it in another garment and then washed the other side.  Not be be unclothed.

 

What would happen if you died in a bathtub, is that person going to hell, because they did not have their garment on.  Mormon's took it seriously.  They could lose their salvation if they died unclothed.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

By that you are literally removing the 'five foolish virgins' out of our Lord Jesus parable warning about the ten virgins.

 

There will be deceived brethren that truly believe on Jesus Christ, and it will comprise whole congregations who will listen to their elders and pastors tell them that the coming Pseudo-Christ is our Lord Jesus. Just as how many blindly follow what they are taught in Churches that allow charlatans to creep in and guide them, those sheep are not recognizing The True Shepherd's voice.

 

And based on what our Lord Jesus taught about the tribulation events, the number of deceived brethren will be in a majority.

 

I suggest you make a decision who you will listen to and heed in our near future, especially when the Pseudo-Christ shows up. In that time there will only be One valid True Voice to listen to, that being the Voice of our Heavenly Father through His Son by The Holy Spirit revealing His Word of Truth.

[Salty]

And your garment question;  This was perplexing for the Mormons, so when they took a bath, they kept one arm in a sleeve of their garment and then put it in another garment and then washed the other side.  Not be be unclothed.

 

What would happen if you died in a bathtub, is that person going to hell, because they did not have their garment on.  Mormon's took it seriously.  They could lose their salvation if they died unclothed.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

What 'garment question' was that you speak of?

 

The only thing I spoke of was what our Lord Jesus said in Rev.16:15 to His Church, warning them to keep their 'garments' because He comes "as a thief". The "garments" He was speaking of represent the garments of His Salvation. He uses it there as an symbol to point directly to His Promised Salvation. Thus that "garments" is pointing to something very literal, i.e., one's Salvation through Christ Jesus, but not in relation to any Mormon thing.

 

And obviously, the Mormon religion (of which I do not belong to) began long after our Lord Jesus said that in Rev.16:15 through His Apostle John.

 

But go to that coming Pseudo-Christ when he comes, and he is coming prior to our Lord Jesus gathering us, then I can guarantee you will lose... your shirt, cloak, garment, or whatever you want to call it.

 

If you think I'm wrong with my explanation of the actual meaning of "as a thief" by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles, then you might want to read the latter section of Matt.24 again, where our Lord goes into detail about remaining on watch for His coming. That is one of the chapters where He warned of that coming Pseudo-Christ.