Why the 2 Witnesses in Rev. will be hated by the whole world?

[Guest Geoff Primanti]

The Bible teaches that in the end time the Beast will trick Israel into believing he is the Christ. He will blaspheme and have the word cast out all that is New Testament affirming the Old Covenant in the last seven years, but renege on this in the middle of that seven year  period... returning humanities religious world views and center to Babylon. Then the Jews he hoodwinked will rebel as the Christians had at the beginning of the Beast's rise to power... and the world will turn on the Jews to the point of their utter annihilation... but just before that point the few who survive to that point will cry out to Jesus (since nothing else has worked and they are desperate and sadly cry out to him as a last resort). Then he will come as it speaks of him in Zechariah and Revelation 14.

 

I am not a pastor (by human standards / traditions of men) so I cannot start a Bible study here to show where and how the Bible teaches all of this. If a pastor here will start the topic in the Bible study section, I will be happy to show these things there.

 

The Jews will survive the Great Tribulation according to the Book of Revelation (at least 12,000 of them from each of twelve tries will; excluding the tribe of Dan but including the tribe of Levi).  Revelation 7:1-8 and 14:1-5 and also possibly 20:4-6.  But be a Berean about this last reference (Acts 17:11).

[Sister]

The Jews will survive the Great Tribulation according to the Book of Revelation (at least 12,000 of them from each of twelve tries will; excluding the tribe of Dan but including the tribe of Levi).  Revelation 7:1-8 and 14:1-5 and also possibly 20:4-6.  But be a Berean about this last reference (Acts 17:11).

 

Hi Geoff

 

I don't think the 144,000 are Jews by nature, but rather spiritual Jews, because the 144,000 are those that followed the lamb where-soever he goes, and it makes no difference whether Jew or Greek etc.

The reason I think they are called the 12 tribes of Israel is because  the Jews were the natural branches, and the believing gentiles are grafted on to the same tree.

 

 Romans 8:15   For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 Romans 8:16   The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 Romans 8:17   And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

 

Romans 8:23   And not only they, (GENTILES) but ourselves also (JEWS/APPOSTLES), which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption (THE GENTLES TO COME IN), to wit, the redemption of our body. (THE BODY WILL BE MADE WHOLE - ALL IN CHRIST)

 

I see the 144,000 as the true believers of the last days that followed Christ, the special elite group, and these are sealed, could be Jews in there and gentiles, makes no difference. They follow Christ.

Plus there are no true tribes today, as all are mixed. What do you think?

I do agree that the 144,000 will be protected during the tribulation, and their lives will be spared, like it was back in the days the angels passed over all the Hebrews in Egypt, and kept them untouched.

[ezekiel]

If following Christ says kill my enemy then I will, If following Christ says hate my enemy then I will hate them , If Christ says dont feed them then I will not feed then, If Christ says dont turn the other so it cant be hurt I will not turn , If Christ says cause fire to come down from heaven I will and it will happen, If Christ say call on the wind I will and it will do as I say, (But is this what Christ has taught). vengeance is the lords, moreover when God speaks about trees its usually about nations and kingdoms, and still looking to find when he dosnt talk about trees that are not nations and kingdoms.

[Guest Jesse]

Yes Ezekiel

 

The ceadars are the high and proud.

 

jesse.

[Salty]

 

The Jews will survive the Great Tribulation according to the Book of Revelation (at least 12,000 of them from each of twelve tries will; excluding the tribe of Dan but including the tribe of Levi).  Revelation 7:1-8 and 14:1-5 and also possibly 20:4-6.  But be a Berean about this last reference (Acts 17:11).

 

Hi Geoff

 

I don't think the 144,000 are Jews by nature, but rather spiritual Jews, because the 144,000 are those that followed the lamb where-soever he goes, and it makes no difference whether Jew or Greek etc.

The reason I think they are called the 12 tribes of Israel is because  the Jews were the natural branches, and the believing gentiles are grafted on to the same tree.

 

 Romans 8:15   For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 Romans 8:16   The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 Romans 8:17   And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

 

Romans 8:23   And not only they, (GENTILES) but ourselves also (JEWS/APPOSTLES), which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption (THE GENTLES TO COME IN), to wit, the redemption of our body. (THE BODY WILL BE MADE WHOLE - ALL IN CHRIST)

 

I see the 144,000 as the true believers of the last days that followed Christ, the special elite group, and these are sealed, could be Jews in there and gentiles, makes no difference. They follow Christ.

Plus there are no true tribes today, as all are mixed. What do you think?

I do agree that the 144,000 will be protected during the tribulation, and their lives will be spared, like it was back in the days the angels passed over all the Hebrews in Egypt, and kept them untouched.

 

 

If the Jews represent the natural branches of Israel, then what do the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" that God also scattered represent? And the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel actually made up the majority of the people of Israel. The ten tribes were never known as Jews, not by Bible history nor secular history.

[Sister]

If the Jews represent the natural branches of Israel, then what do the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" that God also scattered represent? And the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel actually made up the majority of the people of Israel. The ten tribes were never known as Jews, not by Bible history nor secular history.

 

 

Salty

 

It makes no difference what the 10 lost tribes are considered as.  They belong to Israel and are scattered.  I don't know where you are going with this, maybe you can tell me?  If I called all Israelites Jews, then I apologise.  I will say Israel from now on.

 

My main point is that the 144,000 follow Christ wheresoever he goes, so these are "christians".  Christ is no respector of persons.  Whoever follows him, gets the same reward.  A Jew or Israelite who follow the lamb is no different from a gentle who believes, because in Christ all are one.  Christ made this clear concerning the resurrection.

 

The 144,000 are the only ones that are sealed just before the trumpets blow, so this shows us that they are true christians of the last generation before the wrath starts. They are alive during this time.

The fact that it states the 144,000 are numbered from the 12 tribes of Israel, is just showing us that they too share in the inheritance that was promised to Israel, and the scriptures say that God provoked Israel to jealousy, because they rejected their Messiah, but the gentiles accepted Christ, so salvation goes first to the gentiles. 

This does not mean that Israel miss out completely because they were cut out off the branch, the scriptures are clear that after Christ returns, God will show mercy to them again, and graft them back on.  He will take the veil off their eyes, and they will truly see Christ for who he really is.

What Israel as a whole will miss out on is the first resurrection, and because God's mercy will go back to them, they will be gathered from wherever they are scattered, and brought into the kingdom after the coming. (not all, but according to election) but they will be in the flesh, and they will be taught Christ for a 1000 yrs,.... then it will be spectacular.  A whole nation serving Christ, following his laws, and a model nation to all those other nations who survived Armageddon, who will be multiplying for a thousand years.  After the thousand years, in the 2nd judgement, they will be changed to spirit of course.  So it started with Israel, they backslid and were punished, then mercy comes back, and it ends with God being glorified through them, Israel.

 

We are going off topic now.

[Salty]

 

If the Jews represent the natural branches of Israel, then what do the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" that God also scattered represent? And the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel actually made up the majority of the people of Israel. The ten tribes were never known as Jews, not by Bible history nor secular history.

 

 

Salty

 

It makes no difference what the 10 lost tribes are considered as.  They belong to Israel and are scattered.  I don't know where you are going with this, maybe you can tell me?  If I called all Israelites Jews, then I apologise.  I will say Israel from now on.

 

My main point is that the 144,000 follow Christ wheresoever he goes, so these are "christians".  Christ is no respector of persons.  Whoever follows him, gets the same reward.  A Jew or Israelite who follow the lamb is no different from a gentle who believes, because in Christ all are one.  Christ made this clear concerning the resurrection.

 

The 144,000 are the only ones that are sealed just before the trumpets blow, so this shows us that they are true christians of the last generation before the wrath starts. They are alive during this time.

The fact that it states the 144,000 are numbered from the 12 tribes of Israel, is just showing us that they too share in the inheritance that was promised to Israel, and the scriptures say that God provoked Israel to jealousy, because they rejected their Messiah, but the gentiles accepted Christ, so salvation goes first to the gentiles. 

This does not mean that Israel miss out completely because they were cut out off the branch, the scriptures are clear that after Christ returns, God will show mercy to them again, and graft them back on.  He will take the veil off their eyes, and they will truly see Christ for who he really is.

What Israel as a whole will miss out on is the first resurrection, and because God's mercy will go back to them, they will be gathered from wherever they are scattered, and brought into the kingdom after the coming. (not all, but according to election) but they will be in the flesh, and they will be taught Christ for a 1000 yrs,.... then it will be spectacular.  A whole nation serving Christ, following his laws, and a model nation to all those other nations who survived Armageddon, who will be multiplying for a thousand years.  After the thousand years, in the 2nd judgement, they will be changed to spirit of course.  So it started with Israel, they backslid and were punished, then mercy comes back, and it ends with God being glorified through them, Israel.

 

We are going off topic now.

 

 

I have no intention to belittle. I'm only trying to show you something about that 144,000 you apparently are not aware of, facts that can be understood by Bible history within God's Word (and partly by secular history too involving Israel).

 

Per the Jewish historian Josephus who lived around 100 A.D., he said the title of 'Jew' was used of the remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and the foreigners who returned to Jerusalem with them after the 70 years Babylon captivity. He said the title originated from the sole tribe of 'Judah'. Apostle Paul was born of the tribe of Benjamin, but also claimed to be a Jew, and that's the reason. It applied to Israelites of the southern "kingdom of Judah" that dwelt in the south at Jerusalem-Judea. It did not apply to the ten northern tribes of the "kingdom of Israel", which God split apart from Judah after Solomon's days, and went into their own separate captivity by the kings of Assyria, and then scattered further never to return to the holy lands.

 

Because our Lord Jesus gave a specific Israelite tribe list in Rev.7, it means it is an important matter to our Heavenly Father and His Son, whether we think it is or not. If we don't know why He gave that tribe list of only 144,000 of the seed of Israel then it shows we need more Bible study.

 

Per that Rev.7 list, the only tribes that represent Jews are the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

 

The tribes of Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nephthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, and Joseph represent ten lost tribe Israelites scattered among the Gentiles. Notice Ephraim, which became the head tribe over the ten, is missing in that list. So is Dan.

 

Do you think He gave us a Message within that, why the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are left out? There is a Message within that, why He left those two tribes out. Yet per the Ezekiel 48 list when all the 12 tribes are gathered by Christ, those two tribes are put back in. If we apply Rev.7 to Jews only, then we will have missed the meaning, because the ten tribes were separated apart from the house of Judah long ago, before Judah's captivity to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. Only a small portion of the ten tribes left the north under king Jeroboam (of Ephraim) to go down to Judea and join with Judah per 1 Kings.

[Guest Jesse]

You need to see Jeremiah 24. about the ten tribes,

they were/are the evil vigs.

 

jesse.

[Sister]

 

 

 

 

I have no intention to belittle. I'm only trying to show you something about that 144,000 you apparently are not aware of, facts that can be understood by Bible history within God's Word (and partly by secular history too involving Israel).

 

Per the Jewish historian Josephus who lived around 100 A.D., he said the title of 'Jew' was used of the remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and the foreigners who returned to Jerusalem with them after the 70 years Babylon captivity. He said the title originated from the sole tribe of 'Judah'. Apostle Paul was born of the tribe of Benjamin, but also claimed to be a Jew, and that's the reason. It applied to Israelites of the southern "kingdom of Judah" that dwelt in the south at Jerusalem-Judea. It did not apply to the ten northern tribes of the "kingdom of Israel", which God split apart from Judah after Solomon's days, and went into their own separate captivity by the kings of Assyria, and then scattered further never to return to the holy lands.

 

Because our Lord Jesus gave a specific Israelite tribe list in Rev.7, it means it is an important matter to our Heavenly Father and His Son, whether we think it is or not. If we don't know why He gave that tribe list of only 144,000 of the seed of Israel then it shows we need more Bible study.

 

Per that Rev.7 list, the only tribes that represent Jews are the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

 

The tribes of Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nephthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, and Joseph represent ten lost tribe Israelites scattered among the Gentiles. Notice Ephraim, which became the head tribe over the ten, is missing in that list. So is Dan.

 

Do you think He gave us a Message within that, why the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are left out? There is a Message within that, why He left those two tribes out. Yet per the Ezekiel 48 list when all the 12 tribes are gathered by Christ, those two tribes are put back in. If we apply Rev.7 to Jews only, then we will have missed the meaning, because the ten tribes were separated apart from the house of Judah long ago, before Judah's captivity to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. Only a small portion of the ten tribes left the north under king Jeroboam (of Ephraim) to go down to Judea and join with Judah per 1 Kings.

 

 

 

 

Hi Salty

 

Thank you for that, you are very informed.  I will have to read ezekiel 48 again.

 

Years ago I was searching as to why Dan was left out in Rev, and it was doing my head in.

You see, I kept picturing the 144,000 as flesh Israelites.

Then one day it dawned on me.  These 144K are following the lamb.  They are "christians", and there are no tribes today, as they are all mixed.

I also realised that if the saints rule with Christ and become kings and priests, then within the the kingdom's boundaries, (during the millennium), there must be mini "kingdoms" for the kings.  Each king will have a territory or suburb to rule over.  The names of these territories will be in memory of those 12 tribes as mentioned in Rev.  Dan's tribe misses out on having a "kingdom" named after him, and Ephraim also.

 

So my point is, within the kingdom area, are suburbs.  12 suburbs.  So there must be 12 kings under Christ. (12 apostles?) Everything will be in order.  The priests may be the 144k, because the people will need teachers under Christ.  That will mean 12,000 teachers for each tribe.  That sounds a lot doesn't it, and there are more saints, besides the 144k, so they will have jobs to do also.

 

Now think of this.  There are many christians today, but many different doctrines.  There can only be one truth, as the holy spirit teaches the same truth, not different truths.  I'd say this 144K has the same spirit of truth.  Same doctrine.  If they have this, then they have hungered, and searched, and have given themselves over to Christ completely, and received this little reward of truth/understanding.

To have this hunger, and committment in the last days is not easy, because the world is so evil during these times.  But these 144K seem to manage through it.  Therefore, I see them as, a special flock, and qualified to teach during the millennium, because they fed on the flesh of Christ during their lifetime, (truth) and that's what makes them stand out, not that they are better than the appostles or followers before them, but they will definately have more knowledge, because they have lived to see the the things prophecied thousand's of years ago, with a clearer understanding,  because back then they could not even imagine the wicked things that are going on today.  The 144K are end time witnesses. (not jw's!)

[Salty]

 

 

 

 

 

I have no intention to belittle. I'm only trying to show you something about that 144,000 you apparently are not aware of, facts that can be understood by Bible history within God's Word (and partly by secular history too involving Israel).

 

Per the Jewish historian Josephus who lived around 100 A.D., he said the title of 'Jew' was used of the remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and the foreigners who returned to Jerusalem with them after the 70 years Babylon captivity. He said the title originated from the sole tribe of 'Judah'. Apostle Paul was born of the tribe of Benjamin, but also claimed to be a Jew, and that's the reason. It applied to Israelites of the southern "kingdom of Judah" that dwelt in the south at Jerusalem-Judea. It did not apply to the ten northern tribes of the "kingdom of Israel", which God split apart from Judah after Solomon's days, and went into their own separate captivity by the kings of Assyria, and then scattered further never to return to the holy lands.

 

Because our Lord Jesus gave a specific Israelite tribe list in Rev.7, it means it is an important matter to our Heavenly Father and His Son, whether we think it is or not. If we don't know why He gave that tribe list of only 144,000 of the seed of Israel then it shows we need more Bible study.

 

Per that Rev.7 list, the only tribes that represent Jews are the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

 

The tribes of Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nephthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, and Joseph represent ten lost tribe Israelites scattered among the Gentiles. Notice Ephraim, which became the head tribe over the ten, is missing in that list. So is Dan.

 

Do you think He gave us a Message within that, why the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are left out? There is a Message within that, why He left those two tribes out. Yet per the Ezekiel 48 list when all the 12 tribes are gathered by Christ, those two tribes are put back in. If we apply Rev.7 to Jews only, then we will have missed the meaning, because the ten tribes were separated apart from the house of Judah long ago, before Judah's captivity to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar. Only a small portion of the ten tribes left the north under king Jeroboam (of Ephraim) to go down to Judea and join with Judah per 1 Kings.

 

 

 

 

Hi Salty

 

Thank you for that, you are very informed.  I will have to read ezekiel 48 again.

 

Years ago I was searching as to why Dan was left out in Rev, and it was doing my head in.

You see, I kept picturing the 144,000 as flesh Israelites.

Then one day it dawned on me.  These 144K are following the lamb.  They are "christians", and there are no tribes today, as they are all mixed.

I also realised that if the saints rule with Christ and become kings and priests, then within the the kingdom's boundaries, (during the millennium), there must be mini "kingdoms" for the kings.  Each king will have a territory or suburb to rule over.  The names of these territories will be in memory of those 12 tribes as mentioned in Rev.  Dan's tribe misses out on having a "kingdom" named after him, and Ephraim also.

 

So my point is, within the kingdom area, are suburbs.  12 suburbs.  So there must be 12 kings under Christ. (12 apostles?) Everything will be in order.  The priests may be the 144k, because the people will need teachers under Christ.  That will mean 12,000 teachers for each tribe.  That sounds a lot doesn't it, and there are more saints, besides the 144k, so they will have jobs to do also.

 

Now think of this.  There are many christians today, but many different doctrines.  There can only be one truth, as the holy spirit teaches the same truth, not different truths.  I'd say this 144K has the same spirit of truth.  Same doctrine.  If they have this, then they have hungered, and searched, and have given themselves over to Christ completely, and received this little reward of truth/understanding.

To have this hunger, and committment in the last days is not easy, because the world is so evil during these times.  But these 144K seem to manage through it.  Therefore, I see them as, a special flock, and qualified to teach during the millennium, because they fed on the flesh of Christ during their lifetime, (truth) and that's what makes them stand out, not that they are better than the appostles or followers before them, but they will definately have more knowledge, because they have lived to see the the things prophecied thousand's of years ago, with a clearer understanding,  because back then they could not even imagine the wicked things that are going on today.  The 144K are end time witnesses. (not jw's!)

 

 

I don't leave the "great multitude" of Rev.7 out of that, which points to sealed Gentiles that also will stand in Christ through the tribulation, washing their robes in the Blood of The Lamb. I do agree all the 144,000 are sealed believers on Christ of the seed of Israel, of both Jews and ten lost tribe Israelites.