Matt 24:31 - The first, second and third heaven

[Floatingaxe]

 

When Jesus was hanging on the cross 2 other men was crucified with him. One man mocked Jesus, the other asked Jesus to remember Him... and Jesus said umto him, verily I say unto thee, TODAY thou shalt be with me in paridise.

to read more about this check out luke 23.

 

Yeah but there were no commas in the original text,

punctuation didn't exist until many years after Christ.

I believe Jesus was simply using words of comfort to the thief since they were both dying.

All the thief wanted from Jesus was for Jesus to remember him,

being in the kingdom today was not on his mind, emphasizing (today) was simply comforting words.

It's basically translator bias.

 

Luke 23:43/Comma after today - Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."

 

Luke 23:43/Original Text - Jesus answered him Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.

 

 

You really do tend to put a spin on scripture that changes it, don't you? Lots of "yeah, buts". It is ridiculous to suggest that Jesus, near death, would actually say what you claim. He never said superfluous things, and what you suggest is a useless turn of the phrase.

 

You rob even His mouth of truth.

[dscapp]

1 John 3:2

Dear friends, now we are God’s children. What we will be isn’t completely clear yet. We do know that when Christ appears we will be like him because we will see him as he is.

 

Yes, and when Christ appears it will be at the first resurrection. This will be the first time dead believers will meet Jesus.

 

You really do tend to put a spin on scripture that changes it, don't you? Lots of "yeah, buts". It is ridiculous to suggest that Jesus, near death, would actually say what you claim. He never said superfluous things, and what you suggest is a useless turn of the phrase.

 

You rob even His mouth of truth.

 

No axe, punctuation not existing in the original text is a fact of history. Translators are the ones who are wrong. I didn't put punctuation in Luke 23:43, translators did.

[Floatingaxe]

 

1 John 3:2

Dear friends, now we are God’s children. What we will be isn’t completely clear yet. We do know that when Christ appears we will be like him because we will see him as he is.

 

Yes, and when Christ appears it will be at the first resurrection. This will be the first time dead believers will meet Jesus.

 

You really do tend to put a spin on scripture that changes it, don't you? Lots of "yeah, buts". It is ridiculous to suggest that Jesus, near death, would actually say what you claim. He never said superfluous things, and what you suggest is a useless turn of the phrase.

 

You rob even His mouth of truth.

 

No axe, punctuation not existing in the original text is a fact of history. Translators are the ones who are wrong. I didn't put punctuation in Luke 23:43, translators did.

 

 

No, at the resurrection, the saints will have already been with Him in their spirit bodies, but their flesh bodies will rise first and put on imperishable flesh. It won't be their first meeting with their Saviour.

 

You do injustice to the word of God by rewording what Jesus plainly speaks based on your own fallible use of punctuation. Changing the word of God is as evil as adding to it or subtracting from it.

[dscapp]

No, at the resurrection, the saints will have already been with Him in their spirit bodies, but their flesh bodies will rise first and put on imperishable flesh. It won't be their first meeting with their Saviour.

 

Spirit bodies huh. Ok, prove to me that our spirits go to the third heaven to be with the Lord after we die.

 

You do injustice to the word of God by rewording what Jesus plainly speaks based on your own fallible use of punctuation. Changing the word of God is as evil as adding to it or subtracting from it.

 

You're not listening to what I'm saying. In Luke 23:43, the original text of the Holy Bible did not have punctuation. Punctuation did not exist when the Bible was written. Are you with me so far? Translators added commas and punctuation many years later have Christ died. I am not a Bible translator. You keep accusing me that I'm doing injustice, but you're pointing the finger at the wrong person. Do you understand what we're discussing here axe.

Edited July 29, 2014 by dscapp

[Marilyn C]

Hi dscapp,

 

You said - `I believe Matt. 24: 31 is speaking of the first heaven because it`s a rapture scripture, unless you think otherwise.`

 

I believe `otherwise,` because of these scriptures -

 

IT IS NOT THE RAPTURE

 

1. The Body of Christ (Church) is in the General Assembly in the third heaven. (Heb. 12: 23)

 

    `you have come ...to the General Assembly & Church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven.`

 

2. When Christ comes for the rest of the Body of Christ he will bring with Him `those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

 

 

IT IS THE GATHERING OF ISRAEL

 

Thus I believe in Matt. 24: 31 the Lord is talking to the people of Israel concerning His coming for them as a Nation. Compare this scripture -

 

`It will come about also in the Day that a great trumpet will be blown; & those who were perishing ...& scattered....will come & worship the Lord in the Holy mountain at Jerusalem.`  (Isa. 27: 13)

 

`& they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other,` (Matt. 24: 31)

 

`from north, south, east & west - from one extremity of the earth to the other.` (Weymouth)

`...from the four points of the compass...`(C.B. Williams)

`.....from the verge of heaven to the verge of earth.` (Moffatt)

[Floatingaxe]

 

No, at the resurrection, the saints will have already been with Him in their spirit bodies, but their flesh bodies will rise first and put on imperishable flesh. It won't be their first meeting with their Saviour.

 

Spirit bodies huh. Ok, prove to me that our spirits go to the third heaven to be with the Lord after we die.

 

You do injustice to the word of God by rewording what Jesus plainly speaks based on your own fallible use of punctuation. Changing the word of God is as evil as adding to it or subtracting from it.

 

You're not listening to what I'm saying. In Luke 23:43, the original text of the Holy Bible did not have punctuation. Punctuation did not exist when the Bible was written. Are you with me so far? Translators added commas and punctuation many years later have Christ died. I am not a Bible translator. You keep accusing me that I'm doing injustice, but you're pointing the finger at the wrong person. Do you understand what we're discussing here axe.

 

 

Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That's good enough for me. Also, King David announces in his grief over his dead son that he will go to his son one day. There is NOTHING in scripture that teaches soul sleep, and those who do not comprehend the fact that we are created with three parts---body, soul and spirit---will have a hard time understanding the truth about what happens to the believer after he draws his last breath.

 

As for punctuation---if you allow something like that to get in the way of your spiritual understanding, you are in trouble. God has ordained how the scriptures are to be read and comprehended, and He directs us by His Spirit. All we need to do is allow Holy Spirit to lead us when we read scripture. When you do that, there is no question as to what it means. With your mistaken interpretation, you are now spreading confusion to those who may be young in their faith.

[dscapp]

Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That's good enough for me. Also, King David announces in his grief over his dead son that he will go to his son one day. There is NOTHING in scripture that teaches soul sleep, and those who do not comprehend the fact that we are created with three parts---body, soul and spirit---will have a hard time understanding the truth about what happens to the believer after he draws his last breath.

 

Paul's scripture about being absent from the body gives no evidence of a timeline. It is simply explaining the condition of the heart. I agree that we are created with three parts, but when the spirit goes back to God scripture is not saying the spirit goes back to God to reside in the third heaven. It is saying that our spirit goes back to God who gave it. God gave us the breath of life so he has authority to take it back. Our spirit is not body, it is breath. Spirit and body are two different entities. Our spirit is God's breath given to us and our body is our shell which holds our spirit. When we die our breath goes back to God. People are not walking around as "breath" in the third heaven after we die. That is just silly. Do you see how it's silly.

 

As for punctuation---if you allow something like that to get in the way of your spiritual understanding, you are in trouble. God has ordained how the scriptures are to be read and comprehended, and He directs us by His Spirit. All we need to do is allow Holy Spirit to lead us when we read scripture. When you do that, there is no question as to what it means. With your mistaken interpretation, you are now spreading confusion to those who may be young in their faith.

 

No, I'm not in trouble and I'm not spreading confusion. I'm helping you try to understand historical facts of how scripture was written. Why are you not angry at the translator who added the comma! Again, the translator (WHO IS NOT ME) who added the comma in Luke 23:43 is translator bias and HE is the one spreading confusion. When you add a comma to such a deep and vast scripture such as Luke 23:43 it changes the meaning of the passage entirely! I have told you again and again that there is no punctuation in the original text. That is not mistaken interpretation, that is a fact of the Bible, lol!! Wake up axe!!

 

ORIGINAL TEXT FROM 2000 YEARS AGO - Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.

COMMA BEFORE TODAY - Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

COMMA AFTER TODAY - Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."

 

When you add the comma before or after the word (today), it changes the meaning of the text. Do you not see??

[dscapp]

Not one person yet has replied to OP question about Matt 24:31 being the first heaven.

[Guest Geoff Primanti]

I really don't want to be sleeping while my body is decaying in the ground.  Those who are sleeping still feel pain applied to their physical body.

[Guest Geoff Primanti]

Not one person yet has replied to OP question about Matt 24:31 being the first heaven.

 

I'm pretty sure you're right and it's speaking of the first heaven.