Persuaded Posted August 22, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 249 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 107 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 22, 2014 Is the God of heaven somehow different than God? More importantly, in every gospel passage that uses Kingdom of heaven versus kingdom of God there is no meaningful distinction- the terms are used interchangeably. Gospel writers even use both terms in the same parable (Mat 19:23,24), or different writers use different terms when recounting the same passage (compare Matthew versus Luke with the beatitudes, the verse in question here- Mat 11:11 vs. Luke 7:28, and so on) I believe you are creating a distinction that doesn't exist, and using that to read a different meaning into Mat 11:11 than exists in the text. "The kingdom" certainly applies to the millennium, but it also applies to our present citizenship. We, today, are citizens of heaven: [Phl 3:20 NKJV] For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, I'm probably not as interested as I should be in the semantics of whether Christ rules from David's throne over Israel, through Israel, or with Israel; nor whether the church is ruling with Christ on earth or heaven or old earth or new earth; or new, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven. Just that Christ rules, from David's throne, Israel still has a part in God's plan, and I am a citizen of heaven today and forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamelasv Posted August 23, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 132 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 582 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/21/1969 Author Share Posted August 23, 2014 What make the 'New Covenant', or the 'Church age, Christian greater than John the Baptist is Christ in them, the mystery that the Prophets and Angels desired to look into. In the age in which we are now in we contain "The Treasure" in earthen vessels (clay jars). It's glorious to live in the age. I like this answer best, but since Jesus 'always was', wouldn't that still be Christ in John the prophet? So then it is also saying, we are greater than Moses, than Elijah, etc. That does not seem right to me. If some of these people are likely going to be sitting on one of the other 12 thrones (apostles on 12, and who knows on other 12), then that cannot be possible. No one was more humble than Moses, God took Elijah and Enoch away up, my goodness, weren't THESE people greater? (regarding Moses: 'who ever humbles himself like a child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.' Matthew 18:4) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted August 24, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,200 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Hi Persuaded, To answer your questions. The God of heaven is God. However the term `the kingdom of heaven,` is specifically used in scripture to indicate to Israel their inheritance. Daniel prophesied it & the Lord confirmed it in Matthew`s gospel. This gospel presents Christ as their king. He is the one who would bring the rule of the God of heaven through Israel to the nations. Now in the other gospels we do not read of that term. Why? Because Christ is being presented to the Romans in Mark & to the Greeks in Luke. These groups were never promised that they would be the rulers over the nations. Thus the term the `kingdom of God,` is used when explaining their part in God`s final great kingdom. The kingdom of God is over all & the rule of heaven through Israel is a sub part of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He giveth more grace Posted August 24, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,049 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 267 Days Won: 9 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 24, 2014 I like this answer best, but since Jesus 'always was', wouldn't that still be Christ in John the prophet? So then it is also saying, we are greater than Moses, than Elijah, etc. That does not seem right to me. If some of these people are likely going to be sitting on one of the other 12 thrones (apostles on 12, and who knows on other 12), then that cannot be possible. No one was more humble than Moses, God took Elijah and Enoch away up, my goodness, weren't THESE people greater? (regarding Moses: 'who ever humbles himself like a child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.' Matthew 18:4)Thank you, Pamela, but the great OT saints had the Spirit of Christ ON them, we have Christ in us. I am greater that Moses for the Holy Spirit endwelling had not come to him in his day. I know that it sounds asinine, but it is so. No, I haven't parted the Mississippi, but I am the temple of the Holy Spirit, Moses was not the temple of the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persuaded Posted August 25, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 249 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 107 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 25, 2014 Hi Persuaded, To answer your questions. The God of heaven is God. However the term `the kingdom of heaven,` is specifically used in scripture to indicate to Israel their inheritance. Daniel prophesied it & the Lord confirmed it in Matthew`s gospel. ------ The kingdom of God is over all & the rule of heaven through Israel is a sub part of that. Here's Dan 2:44,45 which I think is the passage you are referring to: [Dan 2:44,45 NKJV] And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold--the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure. Where Daniel is interpreting this part of the dream: [Dan 2:34,35 NKJV] You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. So the "God of heaven" is the stone cut without hands, which is Jesus Christ. Where is the clue that the "God of heaven"title relates to Israel's future ruling over nations? Indeed, this passage falls in the aramaic-language, gentile-centric portion of the book of Daniel. The title appears to simply be used to distinguish between Daniel's God and Neb's gods. In chapter 2 Daniel also uses "the Most High", "God of my fathers", "the great God". A bunch of titles of God, simply meant to distinguish Him from the gods Neb would have been familiar with. I fully agree that Israel has a future prophetic role and destiny to fulfill her promises and calling, but it sounds like you are reading into the text in this case. We should squeeze the text for every last nugget, but in doing so it's easy to get into left field as we look through the lenses of our own presumptions. I certainly can't claim to be free of that problem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted August 26, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,200 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Hi Persuaded, Thank you for your detailed response & I`m glad that you think `that Israel has a prophetic role & destiny to fulfil....` Now I was not trying to be presumptuous but sharing what I had been taught many years ago by reputable teachers. We know that God is not `sloppy` with words & doesn`t just use a variety of titles for no reason. I believe, He is enlarging our understanding of Himself & His purposes. Thus each title has significance - `Kingdom of Heaven,` & `Kingdom of God.` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamelasv Posted August 28, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 132 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 582 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/21/1969 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 The kingdom of heaven came with Jesus and is in us believers now. We are Isreal, adopted in. Those miracles Jesus did, so did the apostles to the gentiles. "But If I cast ut demons by the spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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