Daniel 11:36 Posted October 25, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) You are 100% correct Enoch ..... Here is the Lord's pre-tribulation "harpazo" action to immortalize His true Ecclesia [Matthew 25:1-13; 1 Corinthians 15: 20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-09; 2 Thessalonians 2:1] Here is the proof of the same who will be dwelling in heaven just before and during the coming tribulation of the Lord's wrath and judgment [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-9] Here is the same with the Lord contending against the beast and his followers at Armageddon [19:11-21;] And here are the same that will rule with Him over His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [Revelation 20:4] [those on thrones] The preterists, post tribulation; and amill thinkers are those that scoff at the Lord's intent to call His Ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and those living at the time .... and one has to wonder just what these people are up to, or maybe just mislead But it is very definitely not a good position to hold [Revelation 3:15-19] There will be a chance for them to repent during the tribulation, however the wiles of the period will not be conducive for the turning Some will, and a remnant of Israel for sure .... but billions of humans will be killed in unbelief and lost forever The theologies listed above are highly perverted for what ever reason and should be avoided at all cost .... unfortunately most of professing Christianity has fallen into this deception today and many will not be ready as the Lord has required Edited October 25, 2014 by Daniel 11:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted October 25, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,129 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,858 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 25, 2014 This was a good sidestep, but it has nothing to do with people SEEING Him when He comes. But then, you don't believe He is coming. Well, you won't have long to wait, to see how wrong your theories are, for soon He will come FOR His saints, and you will be left behind wondering. Seven plus years later He will come WITH His saints. During those seven years you will surely meet the Beast and be given a choice to live and take the mark, or refuse the mark and lose your head. LAMAD I personally don't see the scriptural proof of a pretrib rapture, so I have prepared myself spiritually to be able to withstand the beast........ I do believe that takes a lot more faith than hoping for a revival of the things to come.. So if I am wrong and there is a pretrib rapture are you saying that I would be left behind just because I wasn't looking for it.... Though I had prepared myself spiritually do die for my faith in Him...... is that what you are saying????? ================================================================================================================= Hey Other One, it's been a while. I personally don't see the scriptural proof of a pretrib rapture, so I have prepared myself spiritually to be able to withstand the beast Well there are about 30 or so very specific Proofs in Scripture of a Pre-Trib Rapture that I can share.... but they take long drawn out arguments (No Thanks, if you know what I mean ). I can simply provide a an Irrefutable simple reasoning Illustration that uses Scripture as it's foundation to settle the matter, quite quickly and succinctly. Ready?.... First you have to realize that there is a "Rapture" dealing with The Body Of Christ "Christians"/The Church. This is quite easily demonstrated as you know. Second: Where is 98% of "The Church" from Pentecost till know (2,000 some years) ?? They're Dead Sir. For "The Church"...... whether it be Mid-Trib, Post-Trib or anything else besides Pre-Trib to go through the Great Tribulation......They ("The Church"/Born Again Christians) would have to be RESURRECTED and walking around for them to Experience it. Please show me in Scripture depicting this Scenario.....? If you can't (and you can't), it's Game Over. Have a Blessed Day I totally do not follow your logic..... I don't understand where I gave you the idea that every christian that ever lived would suffer through the trib..... whatever it is that you call the trib. Only the people that are alive at the time.... so I don't follow your logic at all. I do see a rapture, but it is at the end when he returns, not a pre trib.... What makes you think that the entire church, dead and alive,, go through the trib????? that makes no sense at all. So the way I look at it, I don't have to prove anything..... game on if you want to put it in those terms. I'm not fond of that kind of discussion though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted October 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 26, 2014 This was a good sidestep, but it has nothing to do with people SEEING Him when He comes. But then, you don't believe He is coming. Well, you won't have long to wait, to see how wrong your theories are, for soon He will come FOR His saints, and you will be left behind wondering. Seven plus years later He will come WITH His saints. During those seven years you will surely meet the Beast and be given a choice to live and take the mark, or refuse the mark and lose your head. LAMAD I personally don't see the scriptural proof of a pretrib rapture, so I have prepared myself spiritually to be able to withstand the beast........ I do believe that takes a lot more faith than hoping for a revival of the things to come.. So if I am wrong and there is a pretrib rapture are you saying that I would be left behind just because I wasn't looking for it.... Though I had prepared myself spiritually do die for my faith in Him...... is that what you are saying????? ================================================================================================================= Hey Other One, it's been a while. I personally don't see the scriptural proof of a pretrib rapture, so I have prepared myself spiritually to be able to withstand the beast Well there are about 30 or so very specific Proofs in Scripture of a Pre-Trib Rapture that I can share.... but they take long drawn out arguments (No Thanks, if you know what I mean ). I can simply provide a an Irrefutable simple reasoning Illustration that uses Scripture as it's foundation to settle the matter, quite quickly and succinctly. Ready?.... First you have to realize that there is a "Rapture" dealing with The Body Of Christ "Christians"/The Church. This is quite easily demonstrated as you know. Second: Where is 98% of "The Church" from Pentecost till know (2,000 some years) ?? They're Dead Sir. For "The Church"...... whether it be Mid-Trib, Post-Trib or anything else besides Pre-Trib to go through the Great Tribulation......They ("The Church"/Born Again Christians) would have to be RESURRECTED and walking around for them to Experience it. Please show me in Scripture depicting this Scenario.....? If you can't (and you can't), it's Game Over. Have a Blessed Day From what I can read in the New Testament, we can get nothing from heaven without faith. We read that without faith it is impossible to please God. I think we can take this to a verse level. If someone cannot believe that Jesus' blood washes away sins, it will be very difficult for them to become born again. If someone has believed that divine healing went out with the apostles, and God does not heal anymore, it will be extremely difficult for them to believe God for a miracle of healing when a doctor has told them they have incurable cancer. I believe the rapture could be the same way: God will require one's FAITH in being caught up. I also read that God expects us to be WATCHING and expecting His coming. How could one do this if they have great faith they will see The Beast first? I hope I am wrong. LAMAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted October 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted October 26, 2014 ==================================================================================== I'm quite perplexed by your reply... I don't understand where I gave you the idea that every christian that ever lived would suffer through the trib.... You did Implicitly right here..."I personally don't see the scriptural proof of a pretrib rapture". By proxy of this statement you're either Mid-Trib or Post-Trib. Then Explicitly here...."I do see a rapture, but it is at the end when he returns, not a pre trib" The "Trib" is the Great Tribulation. It's the final 3.5 Years kicked off by the Abomination of Desolation in the Middle of Daniel's 70th Week which is Identified in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24) specifically by Jesus Himself. Pre-Trib is most often Identified with Before Daniel's 70th Week. My Position is WELL before the 70th Week. Mid Trib--- is @ some point after the Abomination of Desolation. Post Trib--- is somewhere just before or right after Christs Return (Revelation 19). Only the people that are alive at the time.... so I don't follow your logic at all. You don't? Let me explain.... (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words." This is speaking to The Church/Born Again Christians....ALL of them Dead and Alive. Your position for Post Trib is that The Church/Born Again Christians go through the Great Tribulation. Well 98% of The Church/Born Again Christians are DEAD. So for the "Church" to go through Great Tribulation on the Earth....They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation. This is not only compromises basic reasoning it directly contradicts (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) IN TOTO. I do see a rapture, but it is at the end when he returns, not a pre trib.... What makes you think that the entire church, dead and alive,, go through the trib????? that makes no sense at all. huh? You do, by your Post Trib Position. Your 2 Sentences above are a Direct Contradiction Sir. You said the Rapture is @ the end when Christ returns....by proxy of your position, the Entire CHURCH "Dead and Alive" Must go though The Great Tribulation. If not, where are they? I don't think that.... I'm Pre-Trib, my position is the Polar Opposite of what you just portrayed. Follow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted October 26, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,129 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,858 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 26, 2014 your logic is so far away from reality I can't even deal with it..... enjoy the thread without me involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alejandro84 Posted October 26, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 237 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/24/1984 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Enoch, the church went through much persecution and tribulations after the time of the letter written to the Thessalonians, i.e. persecution of the non believing Jews from city to city, persecution from the Roman emperors: Nero, Constantine (after he reversed his first edict, and killed many who wouldn't submit to his new pagan Christianity state religion) , the crusades, the inquisitions, and many other masqucures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted October 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Enoch, the church went through much persecution and tribulations after the time of the letter written to the Thessalonians, i.e. persecution of the non believing Jews from city to city, persecution from the Roman emperors: Nero, Constantine (after he reversed his first edict, and killed many who wouldn't submit to his new pagan Christianity state religion) , the crusades, the inquisitions, and many other masqucures. "persecutions" and "tribulations" along with "sufferings" and "trials" are not The "GREAT TRIBULATION" (as spoken of Specifically by Christ Himself); they are generalized and we all go through them to some degree or another. "persecutions" and "tribulations" ...... are sourced by man. The "GREAT TRIBULATION"........... is sourced by GOD. Be careful not to Equivocate (Fallacy) between "tribulations" (little "t") with the "GREAT TRIBULATION". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted October 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted October 26, 2014 your logic is so far away from reality I can't even deal with it..... enjoy the thread without me involved. Please show where.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alejandro84 Posted October 26, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 237 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/24/1984 Share Posted October 26, 2014 The great tribulation is not sourced by God , it's sourced by man.The wrath of God is not the same as the great tribulation which pretribulation teachers would mislead you to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted October 26, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) It is in fact the Lord who brings the judgments of the tribulation period upon the earth He directs then from His vantage point in heaven by His angels [Psalms 2; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 6; 8; 9; 11; 12; 13; 14: 15; 16; 17; 18; 19] He even participates directly Himself upon the earth Can the Lord be in heaven and on the earth at the same time? ..... yes He can .... He is omnipresent If you can not see Him in the scriptures above, then you are not reading them carefully Even Satan and his angels will be His dupes in the process .... and will also be his victims [ Jude 1:6; Revelation 20:1-3; 20:10] Read this example carefully [Revelation 17:17-18] Edited October 26, 2014 by Daniel 11:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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