Guest Judas Machabeus Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Seems the context makes it pretty clear: [Jhn 3:3 NKJV] Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." [Jhn 3:4 NKJV] Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" [Jhn 3:5 NKJV] Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [Jhn 3:6 NKJV] "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [Jhn 3:7 NKJV] "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' Jesus is explaining the second birth, being born again, the Spirit rather than the flesh. It seems clear that "of water" in v5 is the same as "of the flesh" in v6. The second birth is the focus here, and the second birth is of the Spirit, not of water AND the Spirit. Jesus is adding one thing here, not two. Okay. Help me understand how the flesh in v6 is the water of verse 5. How are those two linked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persuaded Posted October 9, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 249 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 107 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2014 In v 3 & 4, the contrast is between being born of the mother's womb (v4) and being "born again" (v3). To clarify this, Jesus explains that there is a second birth needed. He phrases the same idea in two ways, to help Nicodemus understand. Born of the mother's womb, of water, and of the flesh each refer to the same thing: your natural birth. Born again, born the second time, born of the Spirit each refer to the Christian's new life in Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There are two fundamental contrasts being discussed here, and as you try to understand the whole passage it's obvious "water baptism" has nothing to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. I was told this doesn't not refer to water baptism. Can some one explain to me what it means to be born of water?? Being born of water was an OT concept and it had nothing to do with Baptism. It is rooted in Ezekiel 36 and 37 and the rebirth of Israel. God promises to cleanse them with pure water. It isn't baptism. It is cleansing of the heart by God. John 3:5 cannot refer to Christian baptism as we know it because it didn't exist when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus. In fact, hermeneutically, it appears that Jesus is using a common Hebraic parallelism, where the first comment is clarified by the second. Meaning that if being born of the Spirit and being born of water are parallel concepts and being born of the Spirit isn't baptism (which it isn't) then being born of water isn't baptism either, since we are talking about parallel terms. You cannot read Christian baptism retro-actively into John 3:5. If salvation comes through baptism, then anyone who gets saved, but doesn't have access to water dies before having access to a body of water, is excluded from salvation and will go to hell. That is a huge theological problem for baptismal regeneration. It is predicated everyone getting saved in ideal scenarios. That is why baptism salvation/regeneration is a false doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 In v 3 & 4, the contrast is between being born of the mother's womb (v4) and being "born again" (v3). To clarify this, Jesus explains that there is a second birth needed. He phrases the same idea in two ways, to help Nicodemus understand. Born of the mother's womb, of water, and of the flesh each refer to the same thing: your natural birth. Born again, born the second time, born of the Spirit each refer to the Christian's new life in Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There are two fundamental contrasts being discussed here, and as you try to understand the whole passage it's obvious "water baptism" has nothing to do with it. So if I understand you. You are reading v5 as Jesus is referring to two different events? Being born of water (one event) and spirit ( second event). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persuaded Posted October 10, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 249 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 107 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 10, 2014 Yes: of water is natural birth, of "wind" (pneuma, the word used for spirit, but also see v8) the second birth, into Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted October 10, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,257 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,673 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 10, 2014 V. 4 Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again? è In context, water is referring to the amniotic fluid. Thank you Persuaded. I am a firm believer in believers' baptism. In all cases the context refers to believe and be baptized, not the reverse. But I don't believe in it being sacremental as in causing a magical rebirth to an unbelieving infant. Neither do I believe that, having repented and believed, Christians that had been only baptized as infants are not going to heaven. The question is, did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? Acts 19:2. I have encountered teens in evangelical churches who have never heard of a need for repentance. They had asked Jesus into their hearts and had been baptized but claimed they had no need of repentace because they had NEVER done anything wrong. This indicated to me that the Holy Spirit had not convicted them of sin, righteousness and judgement. Things got very quiet when I asked if they had ever lied or stolen anything, or had not been respectful to their parents. In other churches people had been immersed to join a church but had never repented or truly trusted in Christ as Savior and Lord in spite of giving the lip service. No genuine repentance or trust. Perhaps this is why Jesus told Nic that the Holy Spirit is like the wind. You can see the effects or even hear it but you don't know where it has gone and where it came from. He can not be reduced to a formula. He is God. Sorry. Don't mean to offend. I am just very concerned about the state of the churches today and how they may have got to where they are. Blessings, Willa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted October 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 10, 2014 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.I was told this doesn't not refer to water baptism. Can some one explain to me what it means to be born of water??Hi, It is speaking about the "baptism unto repentance" which is the new birth after confession is made when we are made a new creature in Christ. In John 3 Nicodemus asked Jesus how could he enter back into his mother's womb again and be born again. Of course Nicodemus had his mind on the natural fleshly birth. But Jesus told him that he couldn't even see the kingdom of God except he repent. When a person confesses their sins asking for forgiveness calling on the name of the Lord. Then it is at that moment the Spirit of God washes their sins away and makes them a new creature in Christ - hence the new birth. This new birth that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about was not being born by our natural parents on earth but about being born again by the work of the Spirit of God within our hearts as we become a babe in Christ and have to grow up in him. John the Baptist who was the forerunner of Christ his message was to repent and be baptized. Of course water baptism is only an outward sign of what has already been done within a believers heart when they were birthed into the family of God which is the baptism unto repentance (salvation) which John preached. This can be found in...Romans 6When a person confesses their sins then at that moment they became dead to sin their sins were taken away. Washed away by the blood of Christ on the cross which was the work of the Spirit of God. They also have been make alive in Christ. The symbolism of water baptism is an outward sign of being buried with Christ and as Jesus was resurrected we too have been raised to newness of life as we have been made alive in Christ. Where before salvation we were "DEAD" in our trespasses and sins. But when we are born again by the Spirit of God he quickens our Sprits making us "ALIVE" in Christ. Those who are born again will also like Jesus be "raised to newness of life at the resurrection. Which is symbolic whenever we are water baptized. They first dunk you under the water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, which is symbolic of dying to our old lifestyle of sin. Then when they lift you up out of the water it is symbolic of being raised to newness of life as we are made alive in Christ being born again by the Spirit of God birth into the kingdom of light the new birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Yes: of water is natural birth, of "wind" (pneuma, the word used for spirit, but also see v8) the second birth, into Christ. Thank you very much!! I don't agree but Now I understand why you and others believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another_poster Posted October 10, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 336 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 129 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 10, 2014 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. I was told this doesn't not refer to water baptism. Can some one explain to me what it means to be born of water?? I can't tell you for certain what the verse means. However I don't believe it is talking about water baptism as we know it today. If the questions I have could be resolved then I very well could change my mind but I guess that is for another topic. The bible tells us those genuinely seeking will find. I believe Nicodemus was genuinely seeking and therefore Jesus would not refuse to answer him. That means the answer he gave must apply to Nicodemus. If it is water baptism that then means water baptism is essential for salvation. There simply is not evidence to say the thief on the cross was baptised. Considering the circumstances of the thief it actually appears he only repented on the cross not beforehand. This means he could not be in paradise as Jesus said since he was not baptised. That obviously is a contradiction. My rule is that if the bible appears to contradict itself then the understanding must be wrong. So I conclude that it is not talking about water baptism. I have heard the theory that it is talking about physical birth. However I also have issues with that view. It is worth considering at least and if I find more info to support the view then that may tip the balance. Having said all that I am baptised and I would not discourage a person from getting baptised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KPaulG Posted October 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 70 Topic Count: 340 Topics Per Day: 0.09 Content Count: 16,834 Content Per Day: 4.70 Reputation: 13,549 Days Won: 81 Joined: 07/24/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/02/2000 Share Posted October 10, 2014 John the Baptist had his own Baptism at the Time. His baptism was a baptism of repentence as a symbol that one turns away from that past sinful lifestyle. John's Baptism was just water. Jesus received the Holy Spirit, so when we are baptized in Jesus name it is a symbol of repentance and of ourselves dying to be revived thru the Holy Spirit. Meaning when we become Christians we are declaring victory over our body and our own self interests. Our past self ambitions died and now we are renewed by Christ the Holy Spirit gives us victory over our body and focuses our new self on Holy things so we now serve God's will and we are not worried about our own will or self interests anymore. Does this help? Well it helps me. TY Chapmic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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