Hear, O Israel: The Lord thy God is one Lord?

[Butch5]

The trinity / nature of God is best understood when we allow God to educate us on the subject devoid of human meddling.

 

The Bible clearly teaches that God the Son preincarnate (God the Word) is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24, John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, Hebrews 1:2). And that the Father's only creation is the body of the Son (John 1:14b,, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5).

 

yet the so-called Apostle's creed begins with:

 

I believe in God the Father Creator of heaven and earth...

 

Wrong!

 

God doesn't need our help.

 

When we realize this we can see clearly truly his Word the Bible is his version of all things and the only truth on any and all subjects. It is there we find the absolute truth to anchor all reality in.

 

Otherwise we are damned to relativism and only fooling ourselves and each other that we even had or know truth at all.  

I don't think it's necessarily wrong because the Word created at the word of the Father. The Father may not have done the hands on work but it is at His command

[JohnD]

 

The trinity / nature of God is best understood when we allow God to educate us on the subject devoid of human meddling.

 

The Bible clearly teaches that God the Son preincarnate (God the Word) is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24, John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, Hebrews 1:2). And that the Father's only creation is the body of the Son (John 1:14b,, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5).

 

yet the so-called Apostle's creed begins with:

 

I believe in God the Father Creator of heaven and earth...

 

Wrong!

 

God doesn't need our help.

 

When we realize this we can see clearly truly his Word the Bible is his version of all things and the only truth on any and all subjects. It is there we find the absolute truth to anchor all reality in.

 

Otherwise we are damned to relativism and only fooling ourselves and each other that we even had or know truth at all.  

I don't think it's necessarily wrong because the Word created at the word of the Father. The Father may not have done the hands on work but it is at His command

 

 

The Word is not merely an utterance of the Father but very God himself.

 

John 1:1-2 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

 

And the onus to back your claim is yours.

[Guest]

 

Jesus

 

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

 

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:16-21

 

And His Father

 

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5

 

And His Brothers

 

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. John 8:15

[Butch5]

 

 

The trinity / nature of God is best understood when we allow God to educate us on the subject devoid of human meddling.

 

The Bible clearly teaches that God the Son preincarnate (God the Word) is the lone Creator of all things created in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24, John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, Hebrews 1:2). And that the Father's only creation is the body of the Son (John 1:14b,, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5).

 

yet the so-called Apostle's creed begins with:

 

I believe in God the Father Creator of heaven and earth...

 

Wrong!

 

God doesn't need our help.

 

When we realize this we can see clearly truly his Word the Bible is his version of all things and the only truth on any and all subjects. It is there we find the absolute truth to anchor all reality in.

 

Otherwise we are damned to relativism and only fooling ourselves and each other that we even had or know truth at all.  

I don't think it's necessarily wrong because the Word created at the word of the Father. The Father may not have done the hands on work but it is at His command

 

 

The Word is not merely an utterance of the Father but very God himself.

 

John 1:1-2 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

 

And the onus to back your claim is yours.

 

Who said the Word was an utterance? I said the Word, (preincarnate Jesus) created at the word of the Father.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

No, do you deny what Moses and Paul said?

I think what I deny is how you handle what Moses and Paul said and the conclusions you draw from that.  To deny your take on their words is not equivalent to denying what they said.   Tell me this, do you believe in the deity and person of the Holy Spirit? 

 

What do you believe about the pre-existence of Jesus before creation?

 

And tell me this,  could you articulate what the doctrine of the Trinity actually says?

 

Actually, I haven't given my take on the their words. I pointed out what Paul said, that's all. He said, to us there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

And what does that mean to you?  What is the relationship of the Father to Jesus based on how you read that verse?

[Butch5]

 

 

 

No, do you deny what Moses and Paul said?

I think what I deny is how you handle what Moses and Paul said and the conclusions you draw from that.  To deny your take on their words is not equivalent to denying what they said.   Tell me this, do you believe in the deity and person of the Holy Spirit? 

 

What do you believe about the pre-existence of Jesus before creation?

 

And tell me this,  could you articulate what the doctrine of the Trinity actually says?

 

Actually, I haven't given my take on the their words. I pointed out what Paul said, that's all. He said, to us there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

And what does that mean to you?  What is the relationship of the Father to Jesus based on how you read that verse?

 

I take it at face value, there is one God, the Father. I believe Paul is using the term in the sense of authority, the Father is the ultimate authority, everyone and everything is subordinate to the Father. As I said in the other post the Word was begotten by the Father, thus the Word, the Son is subordinate to the Father. Even when all authority was given to the Son, the Father was excepted, He was not put under the authority of the Son.

 

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(1Co 15:27-28 KJV)

 

 

 

 

Just about all of the occurrences of the word God in the Bible refer to the Father, there are a few that refer to Jesus. However, when the Father and Son are spoken of together God refers to the Father, with the exception of one passage that I'm aware of where both are called God. 

[Guest shiloh357]

I take it at face value, there is one God, the Father. I believe Paul is using the term in the sense of authority, the Father is the ultimate authority, everyone and everything is subordinate to the Father. As I said in the other post the Word was begotten by the Father, thus the Word, the Son is subordinate to the Father. Even when all authority was given to the Son, the Father was excepted, He was not put under the authority of the Son.

 

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(1Co 15:27-28 KJV)

 

 

 

 

Just about all of the occurrences of the word God in the Bible refer to the Father, there are a few that refer to Jesus. However, when the Father and Son are spoken of together God refers to the Father, with the exception of one passage that I'm aware of where both are called God. 

 

So what is the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Father and Son in your view?

[Willa]

On earth Jesus said and did nothing but what the Father told Him, so I imagine it was always that way. My earthly way of expressing it is the Father is the Architect and Jesus is the engineer. The Holy Spirit also took part in creation in Genesis 1:1, as He was hovering over the face of the waters. But we are only told that He is like the wind in John, and that He has to do with the breath of life and our spiritual life. Maybe He somehow puts everything into motion. But it is in Christ that everything consists or is held together, coheres or fits together. When I meditate on this I think of a chemical level, a molecular level, a personal level as in the church, and I end up in awe again, worshipping my God.

As a Gentile my mind does not wrap itself around our Father alone being God, Christ being Lord/Son and Spirit being "something else" as the mormons say. To say that Christ is not God implies in my mind that He is only a man. It makes Lord seem like a limited title, not as Lord of the universe. But my mind can begin to comprehend that they are One God in three distinct Persons, with different offices or functions, and being in total subjection, unity and agreement as they are one Personality. John 17:21 Jesus said He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. Holy Spirit also resides in both. None is independant of the other. They are one. That which is born of God is God, not a lesser being.

It doesn't bother me if you want to call Father "God" and Jesus "Lord" as long as you realize that they and the Holy Spirit are One Godhead. Colossians 2:9

This works for me and my finite gentile mind.

[Butch5]

 

I take it at face value, there is one God, the Father. I believe Paul is using the term in the sense of authority, the Father is the ultimate authority, everyone and everything is subordinate to the Father. As I said in the other post the Word was begotten by the Father, thus the Word, the Son is subordinate to the Father. Even when all authority was given to the Son, the Father was excepted, He was not put under the authority of the Son.

 

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(1Co 15:27-28 KJV)

 

 

 

 

Just about all of the occurrences of the word God in the Bible refer to the Father, there are a few that refer to Jesus. However, when the Father and Son are spoken of together God refers to the Father, with the exception of one passage that I'm aware of where both are called God. 

 

So what is the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Father and Son in your view?

 

It's the same as the early Christians, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, thus He too is deity.

[rjp34652]

 

(Quoted from Deut. 6:4) Is he really? Well, technically, yes, there is only one creator of the Universe. But, does this deny the trinity? Absolutely not (Also, if I'm wrong on anything, correct me!)

 

If you look back to the Hebrew, the word used for one is Echad. That word can either mean "One", which denies the trinity, or it can mean things like "Unison", "altogether", or "united".

 

Which one should we choose? I choose the second definition for a a few reasons.

 

1. The Septuagint.

Simply put, it shows the Tanakh, or Old Testament, has been preserved.

 

2. The use of Echad over Yachid

Now, since we know the Tanakh/Old Testament is preserved (The Septuagint is from 200-300 B.C.), the writer of Deut. decided to use Echad, which can mean either One or Unity, over Yachid, which can only mean "Only", "Only One", or Solitary.". If Moses wanted the people to understand that there was trinity, Yachid is clearly the better option.

 

 

One thing Jews are noted for is rejection of their own Holy Scripture.  Rejection of their own God.  They are a race of arrogant stubborn fools.

 

It makes no difference how well worded an explanation, how true a statement, such as the one quoted above.  Jews will reject it out of hand.....and the reader knows this. 

 

God is quoted in the pages of the Bible as saying the Jews are a stubborn people.  They refuse any direction of God for right and they refuse any argument by man of God's word to them or anybody else.  Two thousand years of wandering in the world because they rejected God's appearance in the person of Jesus Christ has taught them nothing.

 

If the Holy incarnation had happened to any other people, in any other religion, it would have been widely acclaimed to have been the greatest thing that ever happened to humanity.  But because it happened to the Jews it is rejected.  Christ is rejected. God Himself is rejected.  And so the Jew was tormented, despised and murdered for two millennia.    Despite the well documented high intelligence of the Jewish people, they still "don't get it".  They still do not understand what God has done or why.  They don't understand because they refuse to do so.

 

Jewish rejection of Christ and the Trinity has nothing to do with logic, well constructed argument or Biblical reference.

 

It has everything to do with a moral decision - and that decision - to this day - is to reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the King of the Jews and the saviour of humanity.  It has nothing to do with the trinity as the divine nature.  It has everything to do with the nature of the Jew.

 

The Jew is his own worst enemy.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...