Marriage of the lamb

[Marilyn C]

Hi Encoh2021,
 
Now it`s no good beating your head against the wall, I`ll just have to explain to you your scriptures.
 
 
1. (2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."
 
Here we see the Apostle Paul is desiring to present his disciples to the Lord. These are the ones he goes on to say that `I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to serve you; & when I was present with you & was in need, I was not a burden to anyone;...` (2 Cor. 11: 8 f) Were you there then, Enoch? Is the Apostle Paul going to present you to the Lord? No, no, no. He is just using a picture to explain how he wants his disciples to keep true to the Lord. This is not a doctrinal teaching.

and here....

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."
 
Again, this is not a doctrinal passage teaching that we are no more the Body of Christ but are really the bride of Christ. No. it is purely an exhortation for husbands to love their wives - how? as Christ loves His own BODY. (ekklesia - church - BODY of CHRIST)

2. Can you use scripture to explain what these `righteous acts` are?

 

Since you are also having trouble explaining these `righteous acts` I will help you again Enoch.

 

`...for the marriage of the Lamb has come & His wife has made herself ready. And it was given her to clothe herself in fine linen. bright & clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.` (Rev. 19: 7 & 8)

 

Greek word - `dikaloma,` meaning righteous acts / deeds.

 

`And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David & Samuel & the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouth of lions, quenched the power of fire,......` (Heb. 11: 32 & 33)

 

See here Enoch who is performing these righteous acts. It is those pre-cross whose righteousness had to surpass that of the scribes & Pharisees. (Matt. 5: 20) Whereas you well know, or should that we are so blessed for it is the Lord Himself who is our righteousness.

 

`...by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, & righteousness & sanctification, & redemption.` (1 Cor. 1: 30)

 

If you don`t know the difference between `righteous acts` & the `righteousness` of Christ then we need to go back to basics, bro.

 

Marilyn

 

 

 

Ps. Great post inchrist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Enoch2021]

Hi Encoh2021,

 

Now it`s no good beating your head against the wall, I`ll just have to explain to you your scriptures.

 

 

1. (2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

Here we see the Apostle Paul is desiring to present his disciples to the Lord. These are the ones he goes on to say that `I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to serve you; & when I was present with you & was in need, I was not a burden to anyone;...` (2 Cor. 11: 8 f) Were you there then, Enoch? Is the Apostle Paul going to present you to the Lord? No, no, no. He is just using a picture to explain how he wants his disciples to keep true to the Lord. This is not a doctrinal teaching.

and here....

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

Again, this is not a doctrinal passage teaching that we are no more the Body of Christ but are really the bride of Christ. No. it is purely an exhortation for husbands to love their wives - how? as Christ loves His own BODY. (ekklesia - church - BODY of CHRIST)

2. Can you use scripture to explain what these `righteous acts` are?

 

Since you are also having trouble explaining these `righteous acts` I will help you again Enoch.

 

`...for the marriage of the Lamb has come & His wife has made herself ready. And it was given her to clothe herself in fine linen. bright & clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.` (Rev. 19: 7 & 8)

 

Greek word - `dikaloma,` meaning righteous acts / deeds.

 

`And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David & Samuel & the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouth of lions, quenched the power of fire,......` (Heb. 11: 32 & 33)

 

See here Enoch who is performing these righteous acts. It is those pre-cross whose righteousness had to surpass that of the scribes & Pharisees. (Matt. 5: 20) Whereas you well know, or should that we are so blessed for it is the Lord Himself who is our righteousness.

 

`...by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, & righteousness & sanctification, & redemption.` (1 Cor. 1: 30)

 

If you don`t know the difference between `righteous acts` & the `righteousness` of Christ then we need to go back to basics, bro.

 

Marilyn

 

 

 

Ps. Great post inchrist.

 

 

 

================================================================================================================

 

 

 I`ll just have to explain to you your scriptures.

 

 

Please for the love of everything sacred and holy please don't.

 

 

But alas....

 

 

Here we see the Apostle Paul is desiring to present his disciples to the Lord.

 

 

Paul's disciples ??      Are "Paul's" disciples Born Again Christians-----"The Church"??  The Prosecution Rests.

 

 

These are the ones he goes on to say that `I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to serve you; & when I was present with you & was in need, I was not a burden to anyone;...`

 

He also said, directly after the passage in question and before your passage above.....

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2-7) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.  {3} But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.  {4} For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.  {5} For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.  {6} But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.  {7} Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?"

 

then....

 

(2 Corinthians 11:8-10) "I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.  {9} And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.  {10} As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia."

 

 

IN TOTO does nothing whatsoever to change.... (2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

 

Were you there then, Enoch?

 

 

Strawman (Fallacy).  Were you?

 

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

Again, this is not a doctrinal passage teaching that we are no more the Body of Christ but are really the bride of Christ. No. it is purely an exhortation for husbands to love their wives - how? as Christ loves His own BODY. (ekklesia - church - BODY of CHRIST)

 

 

Poppycock.  There are no Rhetorical Devices in play here; Ergo....a DIRECT Literal Reference,  and..... "but I speak concerning" renders your "tap dance" of.... "it is purely an exhortation for husbands to love their wives" feebly contrived; Ergo...summarily dismissed IN TOTO.

 

Moreover, By the MERE FACT that a Great Mystery is being revealed.......is DOCTRINE!

 

 

If you don`t know the difference between `righteous acts` & the `righteousness` of Christ then we need to go back to basics, bro.

 

 

Yea sure, this is a Classic "Tell" for no argument because you're reduced to a back-handed slight.  You're about 3 degrees from sincerity with this.  Define Pretentious.....?

 

So this is what you're reduced to doing.....

 

(Revelation 19:7-8) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

This is the passage in question....Who's the Wife?  And since your position is Colossally Untenable (SEE: Above, for the 10th time), you're reduced to something of a Red Herring (Fallacy, diversion) with what she's clothed in and what that Equals, here...

 

{8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

 

 

And then this...

 

`And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David & Samuel & the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouth of lions, quenched the power of fire,......` (Heb. 11: 32 & 33)

 

See here Enoch who is performing these righteous acts. It is those pre-cross whose righteousness had to surpass that of the scribes & Pharisees. (Matt. 5: 20) Whereas you well know, or should that we are so blessed for it is the Lord Himself who is our righteousness.

 

 

So to expand on your contrived Red Herring (Fallacy).  

 

 

(Revelation 19:8) "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

 

Fine linen, white and clean = Righteousness of the Saints.

 

Then you inexplicably, for some reason---- that's well beyond reason, post as your proof text that "the Wife" is somehow Israel or OT Saints (Which is it?), based on this....

 

(Hebrews 11:32-33) "And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:  {33} Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,"

 

 

So because this passage says "wrought righteousness"..... this (in your mind) Ipso Facto concludes that "the wife" in Revelation 19 is Israel or OT Saints?     This is Non-Sequitur (Fallacy) on Steroids.

 

 

 

What about these that are dressed in white...

 

(John 20:12) "And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain."

 

(Acts 1:10) "And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;"

 

(Revelation 3:4) " Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy."

 

(Revelation 3:5) " He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

 

(Revelation 4:4) "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."  

 

(Revelation 6:11) "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

 

(Revelation 7:8-9) "Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.  {9} After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

 

(Revelation 7:14) "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

(Revelation 15:6) "And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles."

 

(Revelation 19:13-14) "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

 

??

 

Moreover, How can "the Wife" be Israel in Heaven (Revelation 19:7) @ the Marriage Supper before Christ's Return (Revelation 14-16) of which, HE is coming to save??  

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

(Jeremiah 15:11) "The LORD said, Verily it shall be well with thy remnant; verily I will cause the enemy to entreat thee well in the time of evil and in the time of affliction."

 

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

(Isaiah 63:1-4) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come."

 

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

Bozrah = Petra .....

 

 

 

 

Bozrah/Petra is where the Jewish Remnant escape to and where "In their Affliction" (Jacobs Trouble, Great Tribulation) petition The LORD to Return....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

Now you said -

 

 

`So because this passage says "wrought righteousness"..... this (in your mind) Ipso Facto concludes that "the wife" in Revelation 19 is Israel or OT Saints? `

 

No Enoch, the `wife` in Rev. 19 is not the old testament saints who, as we know are in the General Assembly. (Heb. 12: 23) The point I was making was that they `wrought righteousness` laboured for righteousness.

 

Greek word - `ergazomai` to toil, labour for...work...

 

The nation of Israel during the tribulation will also have to `labour, toil, work for righteousness.`

 

The nations also are judged by Christ for their works. (Matt. 25: 31 - 46) - give people food, clothing, shelter, visit them in prison.... `acts of righteousness.`

 

Do you labour, work for your righteousness Enoch? Or are you righteous in Christ Jesus?

 

 

Marilyn.

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

Now you said -

 

`So because this passage says "wrought righteousness"..... this (in your mind) Ipso Facto concludes that "the wife" in Revelation 19 is Israel or OT Saints? `

 

No Enoch, the `wife` in Rev. 19 is not the old testament saints who, as we know are in the General Assembly. (Heb. 12: 23) The point I was making was that they `wrought righteousness` laboured for righteousness.

 

Greek word - `ergazomai` to toil, labour for...work...

 

The nation of Israel during the tribulation will also have to `labour, toil, work for righteousness.`

 

The nations also are judged by Christ for their works. (Matt. 25: 31 - 46) - give people food, clothing, shelter, visit them in prison.... `acts of righteousness.`

 

Do you labour, work for your righteousness Enoch? Or are you righteous in Christ Jesus?

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

====================================================================================================

 

What is your point Marilyn?  Who SPECIFICALLY is "The Bride/Wife"....?  Then Support It...?

 

I've already shown you, through the Plain WORD of GOD, who "The Bride/The Wife" is.  

 

And your attempt to Equivocate (Fallacy)------  "Righteousness" of the Saints"  with "Acts of Righteousness" was bludgeoned senseless in my last post.

 

Any Righteousness from me personally is ALL in the Acceptance of Jesus Christ ------Ergo: Born Again Christian------>"The Church". 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

I posted this on the `Where is the Body of Christ....` thread. You may have forgotton.

 

 

WHO IS THE WIFE ?

Is it the Body of Christ?

1. 2 Cor. 11: 2

Paul says -`…for I betrothed you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.` (2 Cor. 11: 2)

This is not a doctrinal passage, but the pure exhortation of Paul to his converts only. He no more declares they are the Bride, than he (Paul) was their father or mother. (1 Thess. 2: 11) & `My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you.` (Gal. 4: 19)

Paul talks to these converts about `when I was present with you….I kept myself from being a burden to you…` (2 Cor. 11: 9) We can read these passages but they are specifically written to Paul`s converts. And we do not take it personally as though Paul would `present us ` to Christ.

2. Eph. 5: 28 - 32

Paul says - `So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loves His wife loves himself….For we are members of His Body, of His flesh, & of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father & mother, & shall be joined unto his wife & they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ & the church (the Body of Christ).` (Eph. 5: 28 – 32)

This passage again is not doctrinal, but exhortational & illustrative. It is a metaphor: regarding devotion & affection – definitely not marriage. As Christ loved His Body – the Church; so husbands ought to love their body – ie. their wives.

The Body of Christ is `One New Man,` (Eph. 2: 15 – 16) & `unto a perfect Man` (Eph. 4: 12 – 13) Masculine.


Is it Israel?

The `Bride` was known to John the Baptist (John 3: 29) & was depicted in the Old Testament.

`For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of hosts…for the Lord has called you like a wife forsaken….` (Isa. 54: 5 & 6)

Israel`s relationship with the Lord was as a `husband & wife.` Then when Israel turned from God He `divorced her.`

`And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away & given her a writ of divorce,…` (Jer. 3: 8)

The book of Hosea shows us how the Lord will again `marry,` connect with Israel again.

`Then the Lord said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by her husband, yet an adulteress, even as the Lord loves the sons of Israel, though they turn to other gods…Afterwards the sons of Israel will return & seek the Lord their God…..` (Hosea 3: 1 & 5)

Thus we see when the Lord returns to earth & delivers Israel from their enemies He will –

`…pour out on the house of David & on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace….` (Zech. 12: 10)

They will celebrate the `wedding feast, ` the Feast of Tabernacles, which is God with us. God, through Jesus will connect again with His people Israel. This will take place ON the earth as Jesus told them. Note the wedding guest who had come in to the feast but did not have wedding clothes.

`…when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw there a man not dressed in wedding clothes, & he said to him, “Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?.....cast him into the outer darkness…` (Matt. 22: 11 – 13)

No one would be able to get into the `wedding feast,` if it was in heaven & they did not have `wedding clothes.`




Now let us look in detail at Rev. 19: 7 – 9

`Let us be glad & rejoice, & give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, & His wife has made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean & white; for the fine linen is the righteousness acts of the saints. And he said unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said unto me, These are the true sayings of God` (Rev. 19: 7 - 9)

The Lamb – The title of the Lamb, is in relation to Israel`s sacrifices.

`..Behold the Lamb of God..` (John 1: 29) John the Baptist said this to the people of Israel showing them that Jesus was to be the ultimate Lamb, the final sacrifice. The Body of Christ knows Jesus by this title but to us He is the `Head of the Body,` as we never used lambs for sacrifices.

His Wife – This symbol was given to Israel for their relationship with God. The Body of Christ is a male Body – One New Man.

Fine Linen - `…the righteous acts of the saints.` Those who believed in God, pre-cross were given righteousness through their righteous acts.

`And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David & Samuel & the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness….` (Heb. 11: 32 & 33)

The Body of Christ (post cross) however is righteous through Christ.

`…you are in Christ Jesus who became to us wisdom from God & righteousness & sanctification, & redemption.` (1 Cor. 1: 30)

 

 

Marilyn.


 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

=====================================================================================================

 

 

WHO IS THE WIFE ?

Is it the Body of Christ?

1. 2 Cor. 11: 2

Paul says -`…for I betrothed you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.` (2 Cor. 11: 2)

This is not a doctrinal passage, but the pure exhortation of Paul to his converts only. He no more declares they are the Bride, than he (Paul) was their father or mother. (1 Thess. 2: 11) & `My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you.` (Gal. 4: 19)

Paul talks to these converts about `when I was present with you….I kept myself from being a burden to you…` (2 Cor. 11: 9) We can read these passages but they are specifically written to Paul`s converts. And we do not take it personally as though Paul would `present us ` to Christ.

2. Eph. 5: 28 - 32

Paul says - `So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loves His wife loves himself….For we are members of His Body, of His flesh, & of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father & mother, & shall be joined unto his wife & they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ & the church (the Body of Christ).` (Eph. 5: 28 – 32)

This passage again is not doctrinal, but exhortational & illustrative. It is a metaphor: regarding devotion & affection – definitely not marriage. As Christ loved His Body – the Church; so husbands ought to love their body – ie. their wives.

The Body of Christ is `One New Man,` (Eph. 2: 15 – 16) & `unto a perfect Man` (Eph. 4: 12 – 13) Masculine.

 

 

@ this point, I really don't know what to say.  I remember you saying something to Fresno Joe about guarding against being "Unteachable".  I've summarily pummeled "your" narrative above step by step so many times I've lost count.  There comes a time when you just walk away......I'm there.

 

 

Israel`s relationship with the Lord was as a `husband & wife.` Then when Israel turned from God He `divorced her.`

 

 

Israel was the Father's Wife not The SON'S (Jesus Christ).  Revelation 19 isn't a RE-marriage.

 

 

 

`Let us be glad & rejoice, & give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, & His wife has made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean & white; for the fine linen is the righteousness acts of the saints. And he said unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said unto me, These are the true sayings of God` (Rev. 19: 7 - 9)

 

 

I don't think so...

 

(Revelation 19:7-9) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

 

What Bible did you get your passages from?  "righteousness acts of the saints" ......doesn't even make grammatical sense.  And I've already dismantled the Equivocation (Fallacy) that was contrived anyway.

 

 

 

 

Thus we see when the Lord returns to earth & delivers Israel from their enemies He will –

 

`…pour out on the house of David & on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace….` (Zech. 12: 10)

 

 

 

They will celebrate the `wedding feast, ` the Feast of Tabernacles, which is God with us. God, through Jesus will connect again with His people Israel. This will take place ON the earth as Jesus told them.

 

 

This speaks to One of the many rebuttals you keep dodging....

 

How can "the Wife" be Israel in Heaven (Revelation 19:7) @ the Marriage Supper before Christ's Return (Revelation 19:14-16) of which, HE is coming to save??

 

How can the wedding feast be "ON the earth" as you just said...... and be IN HEAVEN in Revelation 19 Before Jesus Returns to the Earth?  

 

 

`…when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw there a man not dressed in wedding clothes, & he said to him, “Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?.....cast him into the outer darkness…` (Matt. 22: 11 – 13)

No one would be able to get into the `wedding feast,` if it was in heaven & they did not have `wedding clothes.`

 

 

Ok, so you're using a Parable to then draw a Literal Interpretation......alarm bells should be going off  

 

How does Matthew 22 begin? ....

 

(Matthew 22:1-2) "And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,  {2}  The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,"

 

What is a Parable....?

 

What is a Simile....? 

 

** This is somewhat off topic yet still germane to the discussion and since you brought it up  ;  Where/(what and when   <------ denotes an "ah ha!" moment) is this "Outer Darkness".... where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

 

 

Where does the Marriage Supper take Place?  Point it out to us....

 

(Revelation 19:1-9) "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:  {2} For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.  {3} And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.  {4} And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.  {5} And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.  {6} And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.  {7} Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

[Guest]

 

 

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

Bozrah = Petra .....

 

 

 

 

Bozrah/Petra is where the Jewish Remnant escape to and where "In their Affliction" (Jacobs Trouble, Great Tribulation) petition The LORD to Return....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

Okay, this piqued my curiosity. I always thought that Petra, a tourist trap on a highway, seemed an odd place to try to hide, but I never considered this 1600 Furlongs passage as clue before, so, I decided to investigate this a bit further.

 

First thing that occured to me, was that a Furlong is an English word, and I know that Revelation was not written in Elizabethan English. So, I thought to see what the Greek said. In the Greek is says 1600 Stadia, and I wondered how far that was.

 

Stadia, is a bit of a problem, lots of definitions for it depending on the culture and time period, but after researching this, it seemed to me that the one most likely to be used by John in writing the book of revelation, 1600 of which would work out to about 184 miles.

 

So, how does that compare with 1600 Furlongs? Not too bad, to my surprise. 1600 Furlongs, is 200 miles as it turns out.

So, then I wondered, how far is it from Megiddo to Petra actually. Using Google maps distance measurement function, it turns out the the point to point distance, as depicted in the map posted above, is 156.5 miles.

 

 

Now, perhaps the Bible never intended to be accurate to fractions of a mile, but only an estimation, I can certainly buy that. I can also buy that walking or driving distances, are not the same as the crow flies.

 

FYI, here are a few different translations of the bible, and how they understand this distance:

 

New International Version

a distance of 1,600 stadia.

 

New Living Translation

about 180 miles long

 

New American Standard Bible

for a distance of two hundred miles.

 

King James Bible

by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs

 

Holman Christian Standard Bible

for about 180 miles.

 

NET Bible

a distance of almost two hundred miles.

 

GOD'S WORD® Translation

for 1,600 stadia

 

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

for 1200 stadia

(about 134 miles)

 

However, here is the problem:

That passage in Rev 14, is not about a distance between two points, it is about how long a stream or how far a pool spreads OF BLOOD, to a depth as deep as a horse's bridle. It should not take a lot of thinking to realize, that this is figurative language, that is more blood than the bodies present would contain.

 

Unfortunately then, this is not appropriate for supporting pet theories about Petra.

 

Problem number two is, that those who flee to Petra, do so from Judea in general, and Jerusalem in particular, through a cleft in the Mount of Olives, not from Megiddo. That distance is 100 miles as the crow flies.

 

Now, it seems to me that my comment does not relate to the O.P. Wasn't that about the marriage supper? I forget. But then, I never understood the point of the question in the O.P. I am too simple minded to figure such things out, preferring a form like:

 

If verse X says A, and verse Y says B, isn't the implication C?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

Bozrah = Petra .....

 

 

 

 

Bozrah/Petra is where the Jewish Remnant escape to and where "In their Affliction" (Jacobs Trouble, Great Tribulation) petition The LORD to Return....

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

Okay, this piqued my curiosity. I always thought that Petra, a tourist trap on a highway, seemed an odd place to try to hide, but I never considered this 1600 Furlongs passage as clue before, so, I decided to investigate this a bit further.

 

First thing that occured to me, was that a Furlong is an English word, and I know that Revelation was not written in Elizabethan English. So, I thought to see what the Greek said. In the Greek is says 1600 Stadia, and I wondered how far that was.

 

Stadia, is a bit of a problem, lots of definitions for it depending on the culture and time period, but after researching this, it seemed to me that the one most likely to be used by John in writing the book of revelation, 1600 of which would work out to about 184 miles.

 

So, how does that compare with 1600 Furlongs? Not too bad, to my surprise. 1600 Furlongs, is 200 miles as it turns out.

So, then I wondered, how far is it from Megiddo to Petra actually. Using Google maps distance measurement function, it turns out the the point to point distance, as depicted in the map posted above, is 156.5 miles.

 

 

Now, perhaps the Bible never intended to be accurate to fractions of a mile, but only an estimation, I can certainly buy that. I can also buy that walking or driving distances, are not the same as the crow flies.

 

FYI, here are a few different translations of the bible, and how they understand this distance:

 

New International Version

a distance of 1,600 stadia.

 

New Living Translation

about 180 miles long

 

New American Standard Bible

for a distance of two hundred miles.

 

King James Bible

by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs

 

Holman Christian Standard Bible

for about 180 miles.

 

NET Bible

a distance of almost two hundred miles.

 

GOD'S WORD® Translation

for 1,600 stadia

 

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

for 1200 stadia

(about 134 miles)

 

However, here is the problem:

That passage in Rev 14, is not about a distance between two points, it is about how long a stream or how far a pool spreads OF BLOOD, to a depth as deep as a horse's bridle. It should not take a lot of thinking to realize, that this is figurative language, that is more blood than the bodies present would contain.

 

Unfortunately then, this is not appropriate for supporting pet theories about Petra.

 

Problem number two is, that those who flee to Petra, do so from Judea in general, and Jerusalem in particular, through a cleft in the Mount of Olives, not from Megiddo. That distance is 100 miles as the crow flies.

 

Now, it seems to me that my comment does not relate to the O.P. Wasn't that about the marriage supper? I forget. But then, I never understood the point of the question in the O.P. I am too simple minded to figure such things out, preferring a form like:

 

If verse X says A, and verse Y says B, isn't the implication C?

 

 

 

 

 

===================================================================================================================

 

There you are again, whata ya know.

 

First, let me say I made a critical error....sloppy of me, I did not source the slide I posted. It is from Dr. Chuck Missler (Bible Scholar).

 

 

Now, perhaps the Bible never intended to be accurate to fractions of a mile, but only an estimation, I can certainly buy that. I can also buy that walking or driving distances, are not the same as the crow flies.

 

FYI, here are a few different translations of the bible, and how they understand this distance:

 

New International Version

a distance of 1,600 stadia.

New Living Translation

about 180 miles long

New American Standard Bible

for a distance of two hundred miles.

King James Bible

by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs

Holman Christian Standard Bible

for about 180 miles.

NET Bible

a distance of almost two hundred miles.

GOD'S WORD® Translation

for 1,600 stadia

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

for 1200 stadia

(about 134 miles)

 

 

Fair enough.  I only use the AKJV thanks.  

 

I back-checked Dr. Missler's work.... I would never post something that I didn't personally authenticate; however, that was some years ago and I don't have my write-up.  When I get a chance, I'll double back.  Thanks for pointing this out.

 

 

However, here is the problem:

That passage in Rev 14, is not about a distance between two points, it is about how long a stream or how far a pool spreads OF BLOOD, to a depth as deep as a horse's bridle. 

 

 

This passage...

 

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

"It's not about a distance between two points" ??    Can you tell us what it is besides a distance between 2 points?  Doesn't a distance inherently have @ least 2 points

 

 

It should not take a lot of thinking to realize, that this is figurative language

 

 

Figurative language contains Rhetorical Devices....can you please point to the Rhetorical Device?

 

 

 that is more blood than the bodies present would contain. 

 

 

Why, cause you said so? I'll just take the LORD'S WORD for it, if you don't mind.

 

 

Unfortunately then, this is not appropriate for supporting pet theories about Petra.

 

 

Who appointed you judge?  Pet theories, eh?  Of course you "conveniently" left out the supporting evidence I provided....

 

 

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

(Jeremiah 15:11) "The LORD said, Verily it shall be well with thy remnant; verily I will cause the enemy to entreat thee well in the time of evil and in the time of affliction."

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

(Micah 2:12) " I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

(Isaiah 63:1-4) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come."

 

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

 

Sorta puts an Exclamation point on cases....wouldn't you say? 

 

 

Problem number two is, that those who flee to Petra, do so from Judea in general, and Jerusalem in particular, through a cleft in the Mount of Olives, not from Megiddo. That distance is 100 miles as the crow flies.

 

 

Red Herring (Fallacy).  Where in that passage does it say that the distance is in relation to how far the Jews travel to get there?? 

 

 

But then, I never understood the point of the question in the O.P.

 

 

The OP is the Marriage of the Lamb.  It has to do with this.....

 

(Revelation 19:7-8) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

 

Specifically, attempting to ascertain WHO The Bride/The Wife is.

[Guest]

My reply comments are in this color in the following - Omegaman

Enoch2021, on 04 Dec 2014 - 3:58 PM, said:

Omegaman, on 04 Dec 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Enoch2021, on 03 Dec 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Bozrah = Petra .....

BozrahPetra_zpsa0cd34f5.jpg

Bozrah/Petra is where the Jewish Remnant escape to and where "In their Affliction" (Jacobs Trouble, Great Tribulation) petition The LORD to Return....

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

Okay, this piqued my curiosity. I always thought that Petra, a tourist trap on a highway, seemed an odd place to try to hide, but I never considered this 1600 Furlongs passage as clue before, so, I decided to investigate this a bit further.

First thing that occured to me, was that a Furlong is an English word, and I know that Revelation was not written in Elizabethan English. So, I thought to see what the Greek said. In the Greek is says 1600 Stadia, and I wondered how far that was.

 

Stadia, is a bit of a problem, lots of definitions for it depending on the culture and time period, but after researching this, it seemed to me that the one most likely to be used by John in writing the book of revelation, 1600 of which would work out to about 184 miles.

So, how does that compare with 1600 Furlongs? Not too bad, to my surprise. 1600 Furlongs, is 200 miles as it turns out.

So, then I wondered, how far is it from Megiddo to Petra actually. Using Google maps distance measurement function, it turns out the the point to point distance, as depicted in the map posted above, is 156.5 miles.

 

 

Now, perhaps the Bible never intended to be accurate to fractions of a mile, but only an estimation, I can certainly buy that. I can also buy that walking or driving distances, are not the same as the crow flies.

FYI, here are a few different translations of the bible, and how they understand this distance:

 

New International Version
a distance of 1,600 stadia.

 

New Living Translation
about 180 miles long

 

New American Standard Bible
for a distance of two hundred miles.

 

King James Bible
by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs

 

Holman Christian Standard Bible
for about 180 miles.

 

NET Bible
a distance of almost two hundred miles.

 

GOD'S WORD® Translation
for 1,600 stadia

 

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
for 1200 stadia
(about 134 miles)

 

However, here is the problem:

That passage in Rev 14, is not about a distance between two points, it is about how long a stream or how far a pool spreads OF BLOOD, to a depth as deep as a horse's bridle. It should not take a lot of thinking to realize, that this is figurative language, that is more blood than the bodies present would contain.

Unfortunately then, this is not appropriate for supporting pet theories about Petra.

 

Problem number two is, that those who flee to Petra, do so from Judea in general, and Jerusalem in particular, through a cleft in the Mount of Olives, not from Megiddo. That distance is 100 miles as the crow flies.

 

Now, it seems to me that my comment does not relate to the O.P. Wasn't that about the marriage supper? I forget. But then, I never understood the point of the question in the O.P. I am too simple minded to figure such things out, preferring a form like:

 

If verse X says A, and verse Y says B, isn't the implication C?

 

===================================================================================================================

There you are again, whata ya know.

 

First, let me say I made a critical error....sloppy of me, I did not source the slide I posted. It is from Dr. Chuck Missler (Bible Scholar).

 

Not sure exactly what the error is, and I am not sure it matters to me. I have never thought of Dr. Missler as a Bible scholar. but he is a gifted teacher to be sure. Maybe I have never really thought about what it means to be a scholar, certainly he studies the bible, but then, so do you and I! Anyway, no matter.

Quote
Now, perhaps the Bible never intended to be accurate to fractions of a mile, but only an estimation, I can certainly buy that. I can also buy that walking or driving distances, are not the same as the crow flies.

FYI, here are a few different translations of the bible, and how they understand this distance:

New International Version
a distance of 1,600 stadia.
New Living Translation
about 180 miles long
New American Standard Bible
for a distance of two hundred miles.
King James Bible
by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs
Holman Christian Standard Bible
for about 180 miles.
NET Bible
a distance of almost two hundred miles.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
for 1,600 stadia
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
for 1200 stadia
(about 134 miles)

Fair enough.  I only use the AKJV thanks. 

 

We all make choices, one of mine is not to limit myself to only one, imperfect work of man (a translation), but to take advantage of all manners or resources available to me.

 

I back-checked Dr. Missler's work.... I would never post something that I didn't personally authenticate; however, that was some years ago and I don't have my write-up.  When I get a chance, I'll double back.  Thanks for pointing this out.

 

Do so if you wish, for your own edification or that of others, please do not go to that effort on my account. But thanks!

Quote
However, here is the problem:
That passage in Rev 14, is not about a distance between two points, it is about how long a stream or how far a pool spreads OF BLOOD, to a depth as deep as a horse's bridle.

This passage...

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

"It's not about a distance between two points" ??    Can you tell us what it is besides a distance between 2 points?  Doesn't a distance inherently have @ least 2 points

 

O.K. Allow me to clarify what I am saying with that. In context, and as the language describes, it is not depicting a geographical distance between two specific locations, but instead, it is depicting a volume of blood from an event. This is evident from the detail of depth. In other words, this might be a stream or river. 3 or 4 feet deep (up to a horse's bridle), or a pond or lake radiating for a distance of 1600 furlongs from the source, at the same depth.

 

Quote
It should not take a lot of thinking to realize, that this is figurative language

Figurative language contains Rhetorical Devices....can you please point to the Rhetorical Device?

 

Figurative language may contain Rhetorical Devices. Here, I am not saying that it is figurative because of a Rhetorical device. I am saying it is figurative because common sense would dictate, that the blood volume described, would not exceed the volume of the organisms which the blood belonged to, as you have already pointed out by quoting me below. Maybe the wotld you inhabit is different in physical characteristics that the one I live in. I don't think I could take a pint of hamster, and extract a quart of blood from them, maybe I am mistaken.

Quote
that is more blood than the bodies present would contain.

Why, cause you said so? I'll just take the LORD'S WORD for it, if you don't mind.    

 

Already made my reasons known above! I think though, that you possibly err, in that the choice is not between comparing my say so to God's word, but rather between your opinion of what God's word means, against my opinion of what God's word means, unless of course you mean to imply that you are an infallible interpreter of the Word. I am going to assume you might possibly not be infallible, if YOU don't mind.

Quote
Unfortunately then, this is not appropriate for supporting pet theories about Petra.

Who appointed you judge?  Pet theories, eh? 

 

I think God may have. I seem to recall phases like "judge for yourselves". It is among many responsibilities I have as a believer to try and be discerning and rightly divide the word of truth as well as the being skeptical of things people say. If that is not the case for us, on what basis can you disagree with what I have written? Pet theories? You took offense at that? I have my own pet theories. If there were not pet theories, we could probably do away with 90% of this forums, and all just come here to agree, with no differences in thought. It seems though, that we just have differences (1 Cor 11:19). As your AKJV states it: "For there must be also heresies among you".

Of course you "conveniently" left out the supporting evidence I provided....

 

Actually, I did not "leave out" anything, I did not erase what you wrote, it is still there for all to see! I am not at all certain though, what it is that you think your evidence is establishing that I ignored!

(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

(Jeremiah 15:11) "The LORD said, Verily it shall be well with thy remnant; verily I will cause the enemy to entreat thee well in the time of evil and in the time of affliction."

(Revelation 12:17) "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

(Micah 2:12) " I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

(Isaiah 63:1-4) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come."

(Revelation 14:20) "And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Sorta puts an Exclamation point on cases....wouldn't you say?

 

I can't comment, I have no idea what point you are trying to make with those!

Quote
Problem number two is, that those who flee to Petra, do so from Judea in general, and Jerusalem in particular, through a cleft in the Mount of Olives, not from Megiddo. That distance is 100 miles as the crow flies.

Red Herring (Fallacy).  Where in that passage does it say that the distance is in relation to how far the Jews travel to get there??  

 

As far as I am concerned the passage does not say any such thing, I thought that was not implied by the passage, I thought that was implied by your inclusion of the map. Looking over your post again, I guess I misunderstood your point. Sorry! Didn't mean to cause contention! Just a misunderstanding, my fault!

Quote
But then, I never understood the point of the question in the O.P.

The OP is the Marriage of the Lamb.  It has to do with this.....

(Revelation 19:7-8) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Specifically, attempting to ascertain WHO The Bride/The Wife is.

 

I should have stayed out of this one, after my strokes, my mind does not work well enough to be here I guess. I have cut back from earlier participation in these threads a lot, maybe I should not come here at all, thanks for tolerating me.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Omegaman & Enoch2021,

When we look at God`s word concerning this topic of `the blood flow,` then I believe, a clear picture forms.

Now we know that when Christ returns He has gathered all the world`s armies into the valley of Jehoshaphat. (Joel 3: 2) There He deals with them by the sword of His mouth. (Rev. 19: 20 & 21 Zech. 14: 12)

`And this shall be the plague with which the LORD (GOD) will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem; their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, & their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.` (Zech. 14: 12 - 15)

Scripture depicts this sight as God`s gigantic winepress. Like the gathering of ripe grapes that are thrown into a winepress & then trampled, so is the judgment of man`s rebellion against God`s people & His land.

`Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down: for the winepress is full. The vats overflow - for their wickedness is great.` (Joel 3:13)

`the angel ......gathered the vine of the earth, & threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.` (Rev. 14: 18 - 20)


The blood that will then flow from man & beast will fill the valley of Jehoshaphat to a height of `the horses` bridles,` & then flow up & down the Jordan valley for `1,600 furlongs or 200 miles.`

`And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horse`s bridles, for 1,600 furlongs.` (Rev. 14: 20)


How does that blood flow so far? Let`s look at the book of Zechariah.

`Then the Lord will go forth & fight against those nations as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley;….& in the day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half towards the eastern sea (Jordan river) & half towards the western sea;…` (Mediterranean Sea)

Thus we see that Christ has released waters that flow through the valley of Jehoshaphat & on to the Jordan River. The waters would carry the blood of the slain up & down the Jordan valley for 1,600 furlongs,(about 200 miles).

 

 

Marilyn.