The Structure of Revelation 6-19

[Last Daze]

 

... As I see the seals, the sixth one ends the great tribulation (unencumbered global persecution of the saints) and the seventh seal begins God's wrath.  The mention of the sealing of the 144,000 prior to the wrath, and the showing of the martyrs that just came out of the great tribulation just after it ends makes sense between those two seals.

Technically, “the great day of his wrath came-and-continues” (aorist indicative verb) right after the 6^th Seal is opened, but you're correct that the wrath is withheld until the 144,000 are sealed, and the ones “come out of the GT.”

Those latter ones are not the martyrs of the 5^th Seal, however, but are the raptured elect. The martyrs are “given white robes,” because of their righteous act of accepting martyrdom for Christ: “for fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” Rev. 19:8. In contrast, those who are raptured must “wash their [own] robes and make them white,” indicating active repentance on their part. This cleansing was symbolized by the purification underwent by Esther and the other virgins, before they were allowed into the Presence of the King.

 

 

For clarification, when I use the term "great tribulation," it's a reference to the period of time just after the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15,21) until the sixth seal is opened (compare with Matthew 24:29). It is a time of global persecution and martyrdom, ...

Fully agree with you up to this point.

 

 

…a war against the saints led by the false prophet. The false prophet wages war against the saints for 42 months (Daniel 7:25) however not all 42 months are "great" tribulation. The days of "great tribulation" are cut short (Matthew 24:22); not the 42 months, but the intensity which makes it "great". It is cut short by the disruption of the sixth seal and the wrath that ensues. The false prophet will still be waging war against the saints but at a greatly reduced level of intensity since he is having to deal with effects of the plagues of the seven angels on his kingdom.

Disagree in part. The King-angel of the Abyss – “the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss,” 11:7, 17:8, is not released until the 5^th Trumpet. The False Prophet only arises after the Beast does, 13:11-12. Therefore, the GT is not caused by either of them. The Beast will arise after the chaos of the GT has destroyed world order, and he will establish a New World Order – for the price of total obedience.

 

The main person that brings on the GT is the Son of Perdition, “whom the Lord will consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and destroy with the brightness of his parousia/Presence.” 2 Thes. 2:8 The Lord comes after the 6^th Seal is opened – Matt. 24:30-31 = Rev. 6:16-17 – to rapture his elect out of the GT, as Rev. 7:9-14 reveals. This is when “every eye shall see” his Presence manifested. Only then will the Lord begin to manifest his wrath.

 

Dan. 11:40-45's king of the north, who “shall plant the tabernacles of his pavilion...at the glorious holy mountain,” but who shall then “come to his end,” is the Son of Perdition committing the Abomination of Desolation on the Temple Mount. This “king” creates a world crisis, Dan. 11:44, which brings to pass “a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.” 12:1 This is clearly the Great Tribulation:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matt. 24:21

 

“At that time Michael shall stand up.” Dan. 12:1 This is when the war in heaven against Satan and his angels, spearheaded by Michael, takes place. Rev. 12:7

 

To sum it all up in a nutshell: the Judgment of God is carried out in four sequential stages, over four levels of authority:

2. Neshamah/Breath: The judgment of the heavenly elohim, including Satan and his angels. Rev.12:7f., Ps. 82, Is. 24:21, etc.

4. Ruach/Spirit: The tribulation/trial/purification of the Church, a spiritual body. Accomplished during the 7 Seals.

6. Nephesh/Soul: The “time of Jacob's trouble.” Jer. 30:7, Dan. 7, etc., being the 1260 days/42/months/3½ times of Revelation and Daniel. Accomplished during the 7 Trumpets.

8. Basar/Flesh: The Judgment of the heathen nations. Rev. 16, 19:11f.; Ezek. 38-39, Zech 14. Accomplished during the 7 Bowls.

God's Judgment will occur in four levels, because He will judge everyone according to his level of understanding and authority. “To whom much is given, much will be required.”

 

 

 

The main person that brings on the GT is the Son of Perdition, “whom the Lord will consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and destroy with the brightness of his parousia/Presence.”

 

 

Revelation speaks to three main evil entities in the last days: the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet:

 

And I saw coming out of the mouth of the  dragon  and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;  Revelation 16:13

 

When Jesus returns, those three are dealt with:

 

And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet .... these two were thrown alive into the lake... Revelation 19:20

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, ....And he laid hold of the dragon, .... and bound him for a thousand years;  Revelation 20:1-2

 

And "the rest" were dealt with as a group. It seems that you're including a fourth person which I can't find.  The "son of Perdition" I see as synonymous with the false prophet.

 

 

The King-angel of the Abyss – “the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss,” 11:7, 17:8, is not released until the 5^th Trumpet.  The False Prophet only arises after the Beast does, 13:11-12. Therefore, the GT is not caused by either of them.

 

 

The fifth trumpet is part of the seventh seal and well into the time of God's judgment.  The fifth trumpet is a locust plague which says nothing about the release of the beast with seven heads and ten horns.  The beast is never referred to as the "King angel of the Abyss".  You're trying to associate Rev 17:8 with the fifth trumpet and the association isn't there.  It's caused the creation of a fourth evil entity to try and make it fit.

 

 

The Lord comes after the 6^th Seal is opened – Matt. 24:30-31 = Rev. 6:16-17 – to rapture his elect out of the GT, as Rev. 7:9-14 reveals.

 

 

If you look at Matthew 24:29-31 closely, two different things are seen:

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:29-31

 

Compare the orange with the sixth seal.  People see the throne room scene, or at least part of it.  What is the sign of the Son of Man?  The lamb.  The orange part correlates to the sixth seal and the green part to the seventh trumpet / bowl.

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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As I see the seals, the sixth one ends the great tribulation (unencumbered global persecution of the saints) and the seventh seal begins God's wrath

 

 

The 6th Seal Ends the "great tribulation"??  Can you show where the "great tribulation" starts in Revelation?

 

What does Jesus say concerning WHEN this "great tribulation" starts?  ...

 

(Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  {20}  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  {21}  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

What does Daniel have to say about this "Abomination of Desolation"....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

 

So in the midst of Daniel's 70th Week is the Abomination of Desolation.  What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?  This is Blaspheming GOD i.e., stand in the Holy Place and claim he is GOD.

 

Where do we find this event in Revelation....

 

(Revelation 13:4-6) "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?  {5} And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.  {6} And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven."

 

How can the "great tribulation" start somewhere before....then end in the 6th Seal, when this passage is between the 7th Trumpet and First Vial??  

 

And, Who are these "saints"??  Please be specific so as to avoid Equivocations (Fallacy), are they; OT Saints, Tribulation Saints, The Slain under the Altar, Born Again Christians (The Church), The Jews, The Jewish Remnant. the 144,000....?

 

What is the Purpose of the "great tribulation"?

 

 

the seventh seal begins God's wrath

 

 

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

This is the 6th Seal.

 

Please list all the "nasty's" that were unleashed up to this point. (The first 5 Seals).....?  Would you label these as "picking daisies" or a time of Repose?

 

The mention of the sealing of the 144,000 prior to the wrath

 

 

Why?  They're mentioned here AFTER "The Wrath", which according to you occurs @ the 7th Seal (which is erroneous to begin with---SEE: above) 

 

(Revelation 9:4) "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

 

This occurs @ the 5th Trumpet.  And the content of this passage most assuredly denotes that the 144,000 (See: seal of GOD/Foreheads) are on the Earth @ this point.....Right in the middle of it! 

 

 

It is a time of global persecution and martyrdom, a war against the saints led by the false prophet.

 

 

I have to ask you, are you just making stuff up?  Please show ONE Scripture that says or even vaguely implies: "a war against the saints led by the false prophet" ....???

 

 

The false prophet wages war against the saints for 42 months (Daniel 7:25)

 

 

(Daniel 7:25) "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

 

Who's "he" ?? This is Daniels "little horn"...the Antecedent from the previous verse (The anti-christ/beast)...

 

(Daniel 7:24) "And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings." 

 

You have "the dragon"----satan, the ac------the beast, and the false prophet.  To limit confusion, it's best to clearly identify the who specifically.... and the what.

 

 

however not all 42 months are "great" tribulation.  The days of "great tribulation" are cut short (Matthew 24:22); not the 42 months, but the intensity which makes it "great".

 

 

Huh?  

 

GREAT TRIBULATION: "Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

(Matthew 24:22) " And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

 

How do you know that "those days should be shortened" are not already shortened to the full 3.5 years/1260 Days? Why would the Number of those days be listed 7 Times in Scripture and in the end...be erroneous?

 

If they were shortened, as in shortened the number of days ....where's the new number??

 

Also, could Jesus have meant Shortened Days as in sunlight being blocked (Smoke/Debris) or things affecting the Sun itself?  That would "shorten" the days. 

 

 

level of intensity since he is having to deal with effects of the plagues of the seven angels on his kingdom.

 

 

So the level of "Intensity" is being reduced from the seals to the vials?

 

 

If you would have read my post with even the slightest intention of trying to understand it, you wouldn't have asked 90% of the questions you did.  Seems you're still only interested in confrontation, which I am not.

[WilliamL]

Hope this gets it sort of...

 

LD: The "son of Perdition" I see as synonymous with the false prophet.

We disagree on this. The SoP, according to 2 Thes. 2 (in which Paul is describing events leading up to Christ returning in the clouds for his Church), will meet his demise when His Presence so appears.

 In contrast, the false prophet does not meet his demise until Christ descends all the way to earth to defeat the nations gathered against him, led by Beast and False Prophet. Thus, SoP is defeated early, the FP is defeated late: two different beings.

WL: The King-angel of the Abyss – “the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss,” 11:7, 17:8, is not released until the 5^th Trumpet.  The False Prophet only arises after the Beast does, 13:11-12. Therefore, the GT is not caused by either of them.

 

 LD: The fifth trumpet is part of the seventh seal and well into the time of God's judgment. The fifth trumpet is a locust plague which says nothing about the release of the beast with seven heads and ten horns.The beast is never referred to as the "King angel of the Abyss". You're trying to associate Rev 17:8 with the fifth trumpet and the association isn't there.

 

WL: We disagree on this also. At the 5th Trumpet, "I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit/Abyss. And he opened the bottomless pit/Abyss...  they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit/Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.  Rev. 9:1-2, 11

Who else would be "the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss", if not this angel? One of his lesser subjects? Unlikely. No one else could ascend out of the Abyss before this time, because it was locked up. You've supplied no alternate answer, just denied mine.

 

WL: The Lord comes after the 6^th Seal is opened – Matt. 24:30-31 = Rev. 6:16-17 – to rapture his elect out of the GT, as Rev. 7:9-14 reveals.

 

LD: If you look at Matthew 24:29-31 closely, two different things are seen:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:29-31
Compare the orange with the sixth seal. People see the throne room scene, or at least part of it.  What is the sign of the Son of Man? The lamb. The orange part correlates to the sixth seal and the green part to the seventh trumpet / bowl.

 

The Sign of the Son of Man is the Cross. In the sky. When a pole reversal takes place at the 6th Seal, causing the stars to appear to fall from heaven in a swirling motion, and every mountain and island to move out of their places amidst the great quaking of the earth... then Crux, the great constellation of the Southern Cross, will appear over Jerusalem and all of the northern hemisphere. And Jesus will then descend in the clouds for his Church, and every eye will see him, and most men will wail and mourn and hide themselves in the earth. Exactly what is portrayed in Rev. 6:12-16 & 1:7, and Matt. 24:29-31, and Is. 2:10-21, and Heb. 12:18-28.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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As I see the seals, the sixth one ends the great tribulation (unencumbered global persecution of the saints) and the seventh seal begins God's wrath

 

 

The 6th Seal Ends the "great tribulation"??  Can you show where the "great tribulation" starts in Revelation?

 

What does Jesus say concerning WHEN this "great tribulation" starts?  ...

 

(Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  {20}  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  {21}  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

What does Daniel have to say about this "Abomination of Desolation"....

 

(Daniel 9:27) "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

 

So in the midst of Daniel's 70th Week is the Abomination of Desolation.  What is the "Abomination of Desolation"?  This is Blaspheming GOD i.e., stand in the Holy Place and claim he is GOD.

 

Where do we find this event in Revelation....

 

(Revelation 13:4-6) "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?  {5} And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.  {6} And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven."

 

How can the "great tribulation" start somewhere before....then end in the 6th Seal, when this passage is between the 7th Trumpet and First Vial??  

 

And, Who are these "saints"??  Please be specific so as to avoid Equivocations (Fallacy), are they; OT Saints, Tribulation Saints, The Slain under the Altar, Born Again Christians (The Church), The Jews, The Jewish Remnant. the 144,000....?

 

What is the Purpose of the "great tribulation"?

 

 

the seventh seal begins God's wrath

 

 

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

This is the 6th Seal.

 

Please list all the "nasty's" that were unleashed up to this point. (The first 5 Seals).....?  Would you label these as "picking daisies" or a time of Repose?

 

The mention of the sealing of the 144,000 prior to the wrath

 

 

Why?  They're mentioned here AFTER "The Wrath", which according to you occurs @ the 7th Seal (which is erroneous to begin with---SEE: above) 

 

(Revelation 9:4) "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

 

This occurs @ the 5th Trumpet.  And the content of this passage most assuredly denotes that the 144,000 (See: seal of GOD/Foreheads) are on the Earth @ this point.....Right in the middle of it! 

 

 

It is a time of global persecution and martyrdom, a war against the saints led by the false prophet.

 

 

I have to ask you, are you just making stuff up?  Please show ONE Scripture that says or even vaguely implies: "a war against the saints led by the false prophet" ....???

 

 

The false prophet wages war against the saints for 42 months (Daniel 7:25)

 

 

(Daniel 7:25) "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

 

Who's "he" ?? This is Daniels "little horn"...the Antecedent from the previous verse (The anti-christ/beast)...

 

(Daniel 7:24) "And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings." 

 

You have "the dragon"----satan, the ac------the beast, and the false prophet.  To limit confusion, it's best to clearly identify the who specifically.... and the what.

 

 

however not all 42 months are "great" tribulation.  The days of "great tribulation" are cut short (Matthew 24:22); not the 42 months, but the intensity which makes it "great".

 

 

Huh?  

 

GREAT TRIBULATION: "Time and Times, and a Dividing of Time": Dan 7:25, Dan 12:7, Rev 12:14; "1260 Days": Rev 11:3, Rev 12:6 ; "42 Months": Rev 11:2, Rev 13:5.

 

(Matthew 24:22) " And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

 

How do you know that "those days should be shortened" are not already shortened to the full 3.5 years/1260 Days? Why would the Number of those days be listed 7 Times in Scripture and in the end...be erroneous?

 

If they were shortened, as in shortened the number of days ....where's the new number??

 

Also, could Jesus have meant Shortened Days as in sunlight being blocked (Smoke/Debris) or things affecting the Sun itself?  That would "shorten" the days. 

 

 

level of intensity since he is having to deal with effects of the plagues of the seven angels on his kingdom.

 

 

So the level of "Intensity" is being reduced from the seals to the vials?

 

 

If you would have read my post with even the slightest intention of trying to understand it, you wouldn't have asked 90% of the questions you did.  Seems you're still only interested in confrontation, which I am not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Yes.... So you offer a Baseless Assertion (Fallacy) One-Liner "Color Commentary" Hand Wave Dismissal?  Think anyone will buy it?  Me neither.

 

I'd also like to know how you "Divine" my intentions.....?

 

 

Seems you're still only interested in confrontation, which I am not.

 

 

I'm only interested in Sound Supported Postulates and a Depth of Understanding to Ascertain TRUTH whether it be from you or anyone else without prejudice.  The only reason it seems "confrontational" is due to the inability to Soundly Support your Postulates when they have been Summarily and Systematically Dismantled.

 

Instead of saying: "hey, those are some real thought provoking points...I may need to change my stance" or "Here is my supported rebuttal that shows where you are in error" which displays Reason, Maturity, and Intellectual Integrity....

All that's usually left is the "Last Port in The Storm" Scenario.  Which can be anything from: Appeal to Emotions (Fallacy), Name Calling (not advised here @ Worthy), Conjured Slights et al, in an attempt to divert away from the Facts of the Matter.

 

Does that pretty much sum things up?

[Last Daze]

Hope this gets it sort of...

 

LD: The "son of Perdition" I see as synonymous with the false prophet.

We disagree on this. The SoP, according to 2 Thes. 2 (in which Paul is describing events leading up to Christ returning in the clouds for his Church), will meet his demise when His Presence so appears.

 In contrast, the false prophet does not meet his demise until Christ descends all the way to earth to defeat the nations gathered against him, led by Beast and False Prophet. Thus, SoP is defeated early, the FP is defeated late: two different beings.

WL: The King-angel of the Abyss – “the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss,” 11:7, 17:8, is not released until the 5^th Trumpet.  The False Prophet only arises after the Beast does, 13:11-12. Therefore, the GT is not caused by either of them.

 

 LD: The fifth trumpet is part of the seventh seal and well into the time of God's judgment. The fifth trumpet is a locust plague which says nothing about the release of the beast with seven heads and ten horns.The beast is never referred to as the "King angel of the Abyss". You're trying to associate Rev 17:8 with the fifth trumpet and the association isn't there.

 

WL: We disagree on this also. At the 5th Trumpet, "I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit/Abyss. And he opened the bottomless pit/Abyss...  they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit/Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.  Rev. 9:1-2, 11

Who else would be "the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss", if not this angel? One of his lesser subjects? Unlikely. No one else could ascend out of the Abyss before this time, because it was locked up. You've supplied no alternate answer, just denied mine.

 

WL: The Lord comes after the 6^th Seal is opened – Matt. 24:30-31 = Rev. 6:16-17 – to rapture his elect out of the GT, as Rev. 7:9-14 reveals.

 

LD: If you look at Matthew 24:29-31 closely, two different things are seen:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:29-31

Compare the orange with the sixth seal. People see the throne room scene, or at least part of it.  What is the sign of the Son of Man? The lamb. The orange part correlates to the sixth seal and the green part to the seventh trumpet / bowl.

 

The Sign of the Son of Man is the Cross. In the sky. When a pole reversal takes place at the 6th Seal, causing the stars to appear to fall from heaven in a swirling motion, and every mountain and island to move out of their places amidst the great quaking of the earth... then Crux, the great constellation of the Southern Cross, will appear over Jerusalem and all of the northern hemisphere. And Jesus will then descend in the clouds for his Church, and every eye will see him, and most men will wail and mourn and hide themselves in the earth. Exactly what is portrayed in Rev. 6:12-16 & 1:7, and Matt. 24:29-31, and Is. 2:10-21, and Heb. 12:18-28.

 

Who else would be "the Beast that ascends out of the Abyss", if not this angel? One of his lesser subjects? Unlikely. No one else could ascend out of the Abyss before this time, because it was locked up. You've supplied no alternate answer, just denied mine.

 

 

The only thing that's mentioned at the fifth trumpet that comes up out of the abyss is the locusts.

 

We know from Daniel 10 that there are certain fallen angels that "oversee" certain kingdoms.  The ones mentioned specifically are the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece.  Based on the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2 we can assume by extension that there was a prince of Babylon and a prince of Rome.  I see the beast that comes up out of the abyss per Rev 17 as the prince of Rome that causes the feet of iron and clay to come into power.  We don't really have a record of how many times the abyss has been opened and closed.

 

At the sixth seal the sky splits apart like a scroll.  I think we're just too far apart on how we see things.  Thanks for your comments though.

[Serving]

Hi Daze,

 

 

•Chapter 12 - Shows Satan and his angels cast down to earth, persecuting Israel, then her offspring.  The persecution is likely brought on by the abomination of desolation which I see as set up at the end of the fourth seal where the false prophet performs great signs and demands worship.

 

 

The persecution has been going on since Satan was cast from heaven 2000 odd years ago ..

 

John 12:

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

 

•Chapter 13 - Gives detail about the beast and the false prophet's persecution of believers through the image of the beast and the mark.  This correlates to the fifth seal.

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

•Chapter 14 - Shows the 144,000 mentioned in chapter 7 now with the Lamb on Mount Zion.  This must be at the seventh bowl or later.

 

 

The 144 000 come with Christ in rev 19, so they are taken at some stage ? before the rest of the saints are gathered in the clouds ..it must therefore be before the 7th bowl.  

 

 

Next there is an angel that warns of God's coming judgment.  I see this as just prior to the second seal.

 

 

Can't be prior the 2nd seal. For this angel proclaims, "For the hour of His judgment is come" ..  2nd seal is long before this event. 

 

 

A second angel announces the destruction of Babylon the city by the ten horns.  This is when peace is taken from the earth at the second seal.  Wars and rumors of war ensue.

 

 

Before I continue, could you please tell me exactly which Babylon are you speaking of here? 

 

Thanks.

 

  

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

Before I continue, could you please tell me exactly which Babylon are you speaking of here? 

 

Thanks.

 

This Babylon...

 

"The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Rev 17:18

[Last Daze]

Hi Daze,

 

 

•Chapter 12 - Shows Satan and his angels cast down to earth, persecuting Israel, then her offspring.  The persecution is likely brought on by the abomination of desolation which I see as set up at the end of the fourth seal where the false prophet performs great signs and demands worship.

 

 

The persecution has been going on since Satan was cast from heaven 2000 odd years ago ..

 

John 12:

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

 

•Chapter 13 - Gives detail about the beast and the false prophet's persecution of believers through the image of the beast and the mark.  This correlates to the fifth seal.

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

•Chapter 14 - Shows the 144,000 mentioned in chapter 7 now with the Lamb on Mount Zion.  This must be at the seventh bowl or later.

 

 

The 144 000 come with Christ in rev 19, so they are taken at some stage ? before the rest of the saints are gathered in the clouds ..it must therefore be before the 7th bowl.  

 

 

Next there is an angel that warns of God's coming judgment.  I see this as just prior to the second seal.

 

 

Can't be prior the 2nd seal. For this angel proclaims, "For the hour of His judgment is come" ..  2nd seal is long before this event. 

 

 

A second angel announces the destruction of Babylon the city by the ten horns.  This is when peace is taken from the earth at the second seal.  Wars and rumors of war ensue.

 

 

Before I continue, could you please tell me exactly which Babylon are you speaking of here? 

 

Thanks.

 

Hi Serving,

 

 

The 144 000 come with Christ in rev 19, so they are taken at some stage ? before the rest of the saints are gathered in the clouds ..it must therefore be before the 7th bowl.

 

 

The picture in Chapter 14 shows them on Mount Zion with the Lamb.  Since they and the Lamb are on Mount Zion, Christ has returned.  As I see it that happens at the seventh bowl.

 

 

Can't be prior the 2nd seal. For this angel proclaims, "For the hour of His judgment is come" ..  2nd seal is long before this event.

 

 

The hour of judgment that I believe is being referred to there in Rev 14 is the hour when the ten kings destroy the world's capital per Rev 17.

 

And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”  Rev 17:16-18

 

We know per Rev 17:12 that the ten are only in power for an hour.  This is what they do.

 

“And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’  Rev 18:9-10

 

There is another judgment of Babylon, on the day of the Lord, also described in Rev 18.

 

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.  Rev 18:8

 

Look at what is said after Babylon the city is destroyed:

 

I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; Rev 18:4

 

Its a little late at that point to warn people to come out of a destroyed city.  The destruction of Babylon as I see it is two-fold; first, the city, and then, all ungodliness with all of its manifestations on the day of the Lord.  The warning is to separate from the pervasive ungodliness, which includes refusing to worship the false prophet, so as to not receive the plagues when they start.

 

That's why I see that particular hour of judgment at the second seal.  It kicks off the wars and rumors of war.  There's a difference between judgment and the wrath of the seven plague angels. 

 

Thanks for your comments.

[WilliamL]

The only thing that's mentioned at the fifth trumpet that comes up out of the abyss is the locusts.

 

We know from Daniel 10 that there are certain fallen angels that "oversee" certain kingdoms.  The ones mentioned specifically are the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece.  Based on the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2 we can assume by extension that there was a prince of Babylon and a prince of Rome.  I see the beast that comes up out of the abyss per Rev 17 as the prince of Rome that causes the feet of iron and clay to come into power.  We don't really have a record of how many times the abyss has been opened and closed.

 

At the sixth seal the sky splits apart like a scroll.  I think we're just too far apart on how we see things.  Thanks for your comments though.

 

If the prince of Rome is currently in the Abyss, then how and when did he get there? No biblical or apocryphal evidence for this.

 

The Book of Enoch, as well as Greek and other mythologies, tells us who are in the Abyss/Tartarus: the angels who left their first estate before the days of Noah, intermarried with human woman, were cursed by God, and cast into the Abyss at the time of the Flood, when great rents were opened in the earth. They were cast there by Michael and other archangels at the command of God. The worst of them was named Azazel, the same one mentioned in Leviticus 10. That spirit is most likely the King of the Abyss.

 

Jude 6 The angels who did not keep their place of authority, but left their habitation, [God] has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 …God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness [or, pits of gloom], to be reserved for judgment…

 

Enoch 9:5-6 “You have seen what Azazel has done, how he has taught every species of iniquity upon Earth… Semhazai has also taught sorcery…” 10:12 “All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.”

[Last Daze]

 

The only thing that's mentioned at the fifth trumpet that comes up out of the abyss is the locusts.

 

We know from Daniel 10 that there are certain fallen angels that "oversee" certain kingdoms.  The ones mentioned specifically are the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece.  Based on the prophecy of the great statue in Daniel 2 we can assume by extension that there was a prince of Babylon and a prince of Rome.  I see the beast that comes up out of the abyss per Rev 17 as the prince of Rome that causes the feet of iron and clay to come into power.  We don't really have a record of how many times the abyss has been opened and closed.

 

At the sixth seal the sky splits apart like a scroll.  I think we're just too far apart on how we see things.  Thanks for your comments though.

 

If the prince of Rome is currently in the Abyss, then how and when did he get there? No biblical or apocryphal evidence for this.

 

 

By inference of this passage:

 

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss andgo to destruction." Rev 17:8

 

the "when" was sometime before John wrote Revelation.

 

My guess on the "how" is that he was strong-armed into it.  It doesn't seem to be a place that evil spirit beings like going to willingly.

 

And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him.  They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.  Luke 8:30-31

 

I'm not so sure that the prince of Rome is still confined to the abyss.  The part of Rev 17:8 that says "is about to come up out of the abyss" may have already happened.